Why so many ka24's?

[nerdistmonk]

Ok i have to ask, why does it seem everyone rips the heart and soul out of their datto's and throw in the ka24de? If my z24 died on me tomorrow and could not be repaired i would be saving up to get a brand new z24 in the crate, i just couldnt bring myself to "modernize" an old vehicle like that, the engine is part of the vehicles personality, if anything i would love to have a z22 engine in my truck but have to stick with the z24 since rebuild kits are easier to come by for it.

 

Its like every project on here is 510 with ka24de, 620 with ka24de, im also wondering where all these L series engines wind up. I guess it must just be me, im sure everyone on here has figured out i like the older technology on my vehicle, but its more than that, i feel i should try to keep and or reuse what came with the vehicle if its possible, it just makes me sad when i see a datto lose its soul and become a shell/host for yet another ka24de. :crying:

 

I guess you could say the kind of vehicle i appreciate is one that you can tell is loved by its owner and well maintained, doesnt have to be 'stock' if you would call it that, i see nothing wrong with modifying a vehicle thats the ratsun tradition after-all.

 

 

Dont misunderstand this post as an angry one nor as my getting on a soap box or anything its more of a concerned post. I mean dont get me wrong if your l20 or l16 engine is literally cracked in half and has seen its last days i can understand going for whatever is easiest to obtain and keeping your datto on the road (im guessing ka24's are much easier to come by these days, or maybe the reason is people like having turbos on their vehicle, idk), but i see so many good running dattos get their heart ripped out. As the band Genesis said "Its just a shame thats all"

 

--monk

[Jayden71]

Ok i have to ask, why does it seem everyone rips the heart and soul out of their datto's and throw in the ka24de? If my z24 died on me tomorrow and could not be repaired i would be saving up to get a brand new z24 in the crate, i just couldnt bring myself to "modernize" an old vehicle like that, the engine is part of the vehicles personality, if anything i would love to have a z22 engine in my truck but have to stick with the z24 since rebuild kits are easier to come by for it.

 

Its like every project on here is 510 with ka24de, 620 with ka24de, im also wondering where all these L series engines wind up. I guess it must just be me, im sure everyone on here has figured out i like the older technology on my vehicle, but its more than that, i feel i should try to keep and or reuse what came with the vehicle if its possible, it just makes me sad when i see a datto lose its soul and become a shell/host for yet another ka24de. :crying:

 

I guess you could say the kind of vehicle i appreciate is one that you can tell is loved by its owner and well maintained, doesnt have to be 'stock' if you would call it that, i see nothing wrong with modifying a vehicle thats the ratsun tradition after-all.

 

 

Dont misunderstand this post as an angry one nor as my getting on a soap box or anything its more of a concerned post. I mean dont get me wrong if your l20 or l16 engine is literally cracked in half and has seen its last days i can understand going for whatever is easiest to obtain and keeping your datto on the road (im guessing ka24's are much easier to come by these days, or maybe the reason is people like having turbos on their vehicle, idk), but i see so many good running dattos get their heart ripped out. As the band Genesis said "Its just a shame thats all"

 

--monk

 

I agree with you 100%

 

To me, to each their own. Some of the engine swaps on here are very well done and deserve a lot of respect.

 

Everyone has different ideas for their ride.

[HRH]

Simple.  It fits in the same hole.  Same torque, 30 more hp bone stock on the KAE.  50 more hp on the KADE.  Easier to find, less high mileage blocks.  Newer management=better EFI, not much, but still better than dribbler TBI.  And better than carb, though there's nothing wrong with carbs.  Eventually you'll want to go faster with less effort.  The KA is exactly that.  Not that the Z24 wasn't a good motor.  It was a great bottom end with an okay head.  They didn't build it for flow, so it doesn't go much past 4500 rpm without a lot of work.

[nerdistmonk]

I agree with you 100%

 

To me, to each their own. Some of the engine swaps on here are very well done and deserve a lot of respect.

 

Everyone has different ideas for their ride.

 

 

Yeah, like i said im not condemning anyone for their choices, this post is a reflection of my thoughts, to put it in perspective ive NEVER went to a nissan dealership for a part, ive always made the repairs using hardware store components, which is really what datsun intended when they were building these vehicles, they were designed for one man to make any repair on his own without it being rocket science.

[nerdistmonk]

Simple.  It fits in the same hole.  Same torque, 30 more hp bone stock on the KAE.  50 more hp on the KADE.  Easier to find, less high mileage blocks.  Newer management=better EFI, not much, but still better than dribbler TBI.  And better than carb, though there's nothing wrong with carbs.  Eventually you'll want to go faster with less effort.  The KA is exactly that.  Not that the Z24 wasn't a good motor.  It was a great bottom end with an okay head.  They didn't build it for flow, so it doesn't go much past 4500 rpm without a lot of work.

 

Why sink back into the carb vs efi debate, neither is better than the other, its a cd vs vinyl debate with no winner. Some people like computer precision in their vehicle, others believe a mechanical device should be fed its fuel well..umm mechanically.

[HRH]

Your inspiration is admirable, but Nissan didn't intend for people to fix their vehicles with hardware store parts.  They built things simply because in the 70s, things were simple, thus they can be fixed with hardware store parts.  I've bought tons of parts from Nissan over the years, and there is a difference.  Back on the KA thing.  My 3800 pound without me in it 4x4 D21 with a Z24 bottom end and KA head, it faster than my 2wd 3100 pound stock Z24i D21.  That's why. :)

[jalen]

Reliable

Cheap

More hp

EFI

Parts easy to come by

[Farmer Joe]

just a bit of modernizing...

 

i drove the shit outta the l20b, but 50-70 whp doesnt get ya far.

 

the ka is 140-150 stock.. thats the bottom of the spectrum for a KA, but the high end of the spectrum for the L-series.

 

yeah you can built a lz23 and have similar numbers, but the KA has it stock and most times cheaper to get ahold of...

 

i might be biased though.. lol

[HRH]

Oh, but one is better.  EFI manages fuel input exponentially better than a carburetor can, simply by design.  You can get more reliable power out of a properly tuned EFI system than you can with carburetors.  Not to say you can't get darn close with carbs, but it takes near the same amount of money and effort.  And you still have problems of driving up to 8000 feet without changing jets.  EFI, no problem.  -30 degree winters?  No problem.  Carbs....eh.....not so much.

 

If you value the ability of easy fixing, then carburetors are for you.  Of course, in the event of a nuclear holocaust the magnetic fields may be so screwed up that ignitions won't work anyway, and we'll all die trying to find the last few drops of gas for our Datsuns.  I'll be riding my bicycle until I croak. :)

[datsunaholic]

One of the reasons for it is availability- a KA24 was produced in greater numbers than the Z24, for example, and in greater numbers than even the L20B.  Every US-market 4-cyl Hardbody and Frontier pickup from 1990 to 2004  (a span of 15 model years) plus the 240SX from 1989-1998 (10 model years).  The Z24 was only produced from 1983-1990 (6 years, and only in trucks and minivans).

 

Second, the block is an evolution of the Z24, which was an evolution of the L-series.  That makes it a logical choice. The mounts and pan are different, but it's still the easiest modern fit.

 

Third, being more modern it's a hell of a lot easier to get parts for.  L-series rods are getting pretty scarce.  It's not quite as easy to get gaskets, fuel pumps, water pumps, etc as it used to be for the L and NAPS-Z, and it's not gonna get better.  20 years from now it'll be easier to get Model T parts than L-series engine parts.  Just try and find parts for a nissan "G" engine today...  But KA parts will have the same issue. 

 

 

But lastly it's an owner preference thing.  I have "stock" engines in everything I drive (not always the original size, but the right series at least) but I have a KA sitting in the garage waiting for me to win the lotto (or otherwise not have to slog to work wasting 11 hours a day) so I can have time to do the swap in something.  Just don't have the skill set (no welding skills at all, needed for the custom mounts) to do so right now, and I'd rather the cars I have run.  I can rebuild an L-series easy, but make a simple box bracket?  Nope.

[nerdistmonk]

Well to each their own, rest assured my truck will have z24 heart in it as long as im breathing. Also carburetors ftw. (sigh i know just agging it on)

 

There will always be a love for efi due to its "simplicity" (my opinion: when it works, and that simplicity comes at a cost when it breaks), and there will always be a love for carbs (which truly are simple but can be finicky and you may never get your carb dialed in perfect due to its analog mechanical nature)

 

"Sir i do believe your vehicle suffers from a lack of carburation"

"wait...why would i put seltzer water in my gas tank?"

[]2eDeYe]

Easy and available. That about sums up my thoughts

 

 

I went through 3 cracked L blocks on my last L series build. Finally got an un cracked block, and was able to build it. Cost $1500 or so to build.

 

The KA swap cost me about the same and I didn't have to hunt down parts that are getting harder to locate by the day. I also didn't have to rebuild the KA to run it like most L's you will come across these days.

[nerdistmonk]

Easy and available. That about sums up my thoughts

 

 

I went through 3 cracked L blocks on my last L series build. Finally got an un cracked block, and was able to build it. Cost $1500 or so to build.

 

The KA swap cost me about the same and I didn't have to hunt down parts that are getting harder to locate by the day. I also didn't have to rebuild the KA to run it like most L's you will come across these days.

 

 

Well thats understandable, i was mainly speaking about still operational L series engines, as for those who preach the benefits of modern efi, i wont get into it since its an endless debate that will continue well beyond the death of the gasoline engine itself.

 

I could only allow a ka in my truck if i could fit a weber on it and a magnetically activated distributor, failing that i would order a crate z24 and throw my mods back on it.

 

In the end everyone has their own vision for their vehicles, im more of a traditional old fashion type, but i will make changes if the parts are rarer than the lost ark to obtain (and already have several times)

 

Also on the subject that they didnt design these trucks for joe schmoe to repair, i have to respectfully say that yes they did design theses to be simple to repair, these trucks were some of the most over-engineered ever, and it shows in the thoughtfulness in every bolt and nut placed. Spend 5 minutes looking at the engine compartment of a ford and you'll see what i mean.

 

 

I am a computer nerdbomber, I NEVER worked on a single automobile in my life before january, thanks to the design of this truck and thorough documentation and schematics i was able to do all the work to this myself and believe me it needed quite a bit.

 

 

Edit: for fun im going to put my maintenance log book on my project thread

[Uber Deaf One]

Cheap, reliable, simple, TORQUE.  KAs are everywhere and can be found cheap.  My $800 KA made 163hp/166tq at the wheels... pretty much stock internals, stock injectors, stock tune, stock cams.  Intake manifold and head were gasket matched.  I get over 30 mpg, and shift below 2k rpm, usually skipping gears at the same time.

 

At the same time, I am deaf so I've never really been into carbs because a lot of carb tuning is by ear.  I grew up riding and racing 2 strokes and wasn't the best at tuning those things lol.

 

 

 

[datsunaholic]

  Of course, in the event of a nuclear holocaust the magnetic fields may be so screwed up that ignitions won't work anyway, and we'll all die trying to find the last few drops of gas for our Datsuns.  I'll be riding my bicycle until I croak. :)

 

See, now that's why you keep a spare points distributor around.  No transistor components to get cooked.  Won't help your alternator's diode trio and bridge rectifier, though.  If the coil won't fire, well, that's why I have a Deuce and a half.  It'll run on damn near any liquid (at operating temperatures, not cryo) fuel, and has no spark ignition being basically a diesel (with funny pistons for the hypercycle system that allows it to run gasoline or diesel without detonation).

[nerdistmonk]

I think i see the difference in philosophy here, alot of you speak of the hp and torque and dont look at the engine with any sort of sentimental value, i believe thats why we see things differently, i look at my truck with a certain sentimental value, its my running partner, it goes with me everywhere so i guess i look at my truck different, not as a mechanic per say, I did the work to my truck not because i aspired to be a mechanic but because i loved the truck i didnt want to die (and it was dead on the operating table when i got it)

 

So i learned what i had to, to save the truck.

[q-tip]

A deuce and a half, jelly bro....

 

 

 

And as for the topic, your own explanation of sentimenal value is the exact reason you want to keep the z24 as long as you can and some of us have gone to a more modern power plant. If the engine is dead the car its self doesn't have to be dead. And TORQUE!!!!! soooo much wonderful amazing torque, its what makes the world go round

[captaingamez]

an engine is an engine, is an engine, is, well... an engine. "if god had intended us to walk, he wouldnt have invented rollerskates"

if nissan had intended you to keep using the L series, they would have kept making it and not invented the CA/Z/SR series B)

 

as much as a motor is the heart of the car, my car is more important, engines always get bigger better stronger, regardless if its a stock motor or a built aftermarket one. your always changing it. some of us like to change it for real power you can not get out of an L series, just plain old can not get, period. sr20 vs L series is not an argument, its a slaughter.

 

I just hate KA24DE engines, yuck!, SR/CA all day long!!!!, and i would rather have an L than a KA, but as people said the L is getting hard to get parts for so while I do understand the KA24DE thing, SR20DET REDTOP ALL THE WAY, ALL DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!,

 

Why sink back into the carb vs efi debate, neither is better than the other, its a cd vs vinyl debate with no winner. Some people like computer precision in their vehicle, others believe a mechanical device should be fed its fuel well..umm mechanically.

 

because as most people on the carburetor side dont understand, it is not a debate.

 

advantages of carbs:

does not need a computer to tune

 

Advantages of EFI

endless list of advantages that has no starting point or ending point.

 

you cant argue that an EFI does everything a carb does better and more accurately and makes more power. and it can even be programed to run like crap like a carb if you really so desire!!

 

and i have never seen a carburetor feed fuel mechanically, to my knowledge, except for the enrichener circut, they usually use vacuum from the engine through a venturi and emulsion system, none of that is mechanical.

[nerdistmonk]

an engine is an engine, is an engine, is, well... an engine. "if god had intended us to walk, he wouldnt have invented rollerskates"

if nissan had intended you to keep using the L series, they would have kept making it and not invented the CA/Z/SR series B)

 

as much as a motor is the heart of the car, my car is more important, engines always get bigger better stronger, regardless if its a stock motor or a built aftermarket one. your always changing it. some of us like to change it for real power you can not get out of an L series, just plain old can not get, period. sr20 vs L series is not an argument, its a slaughter.

 

I just hate KA24DE engines, yuck!, SR/CA all day long!!!!, and i would rather have an L than a KA, but as people said the L is getting hard to get parts for so while I do understand the KA24DE thing, SR20DET REDTOP ALL THE WAY, ALL DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!,

 

 

because as most people on the carburetor side dont understand, it is not a debate.

 

advantages of carbs:

does not need a computer to tune

 

Advantages of EFI

endless list of advantages that has no starting point or ending point.

 

you cant argue that an EFI does everything a carb does better and more accurately and makes more power. and it can even be programed to run like crap like a carb if you really so desire!!

 

wow. first off

 

If you go by what nissan wants you to do, we would all be driving 2014 titans. Datsuns would all be in the junkyards rusting and ratsun wouldnt exist.

 

second of all

 

you cant say that efi has no disadvantages, one being that its very expensive when something breaks (and oh boy do they ever break)

especially as the hardware becomes old and obsolete, it gets astronomical.

 

My carb was a one time $269 cost, afterwards i can run it for 8 to 10 years then get a $40 rebuild for it and continue on.

 

also the last i checked theres only one possible way to repair a damaged ecu (assuming you got the solder skills) if your lucky and all it has is blown cap you can change

the damaged cap and it will come back to life, but if its anything else you'll need to send it in, or pay $300 for a refurb unit.

 

Why does this keep boiling over into a carb vs efi debate? to each their own.......but

 

Actually ill end the debate for you, fine carbs suck, they are horrible, i cant stand the fact that i get 24 mpg when the truck was only rated for 20mpg with efi in 1986, its horrendous, i also hate that my truck always starts and all i have to do is pull the choke lever to get it running in the morning. I also hate that it never has random electronic failures that require me to get a can of maf spray out and try to solve the codes from the jack in the box under my seat which all pertain to parts of the efi.

 

Ok so some of that was sarcasm, but if carbs suck and are so lousy, so be it, I love my sucky lousy carb (no pun intended).

 

With that being said several of you gave great answers and points which were exactly what i was thinking that the ka24 was a affordable, easy to come by, drop in replacement to get your datto back on the road, with the benefit of providing more power than its predecessor.

 

 

edit: whether you feel carbs or great or they suck butt from a straw, either way you cant deny they do their job as intended and have been able to that job for over 90 years.

[]2eDeYe]

I will say also, that after driving a KA 620, going back would be difficult. :)

[Uber Deaf One]

I just hate KA24DE engines, yuck!, SR/CA all day long!!!!, and i would rather have an L than a KA, but as people said the L is getting hard to get parts for so while I do understand the KA24DE thing, SR20DET REDTOP ALL THE WAY, ALL DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!,

Lot of people say they just don't like KAs but typically don't give a reason why.  Turbo power?  For the price of an SR you could turbo a KA :w00t:  I love 4 cylinder turbos and the SR is a badass engine, but they are too pricey for me.  I ordered everything for my KA rebuild from my local O'Reilleys store  B)

[nerdistmonk]

Lot of people say they just don't like KAs but typically don't give a reason why.  Turbo power?  For the price of an SR you could turbo a KA :w00t:  I love 4 cylinder turbos and the SR is a badass engine, but they are too pricey for me.  I ordered everything for my KA rebuild from my local O'Reilleys store  B)

 

My possible reasons, i havent any reason to read up on them but from what ive seen:

 

plastic parts used in and around the timing chain, these parts almost always wear out and break usually winding up in the oil pan. (the guides for it i believe)

will it run a weber...

and lastly can i put z22 distributor on it

 

Thats my only concerns with it really. im pretty sure the top reason can be delt with by buying a timing kit that includes aluminum guides and such instead of the plastic junk nissan used when they sold the engine, as for the other two idk. Considering you can buy a z24 crate motor for $1,000 ill just go that option IF I HAD TO, odds are i would never need to though, as i will just rebuild mine if it gets tired and old. (and put .20 over pistons in it while im at it ;)  )

[captaingamez]

wow. first off

 

If you go by what nissan wants you to do, we would all be driving 2014 titans. Datsuns would all be in the junkyards rusting and ratsun wouldnt exist.

 

second

Your biased, efi has disadvantages one being that its very expensive when something breaks (and oh boy do they ever break)

My carb was a one time $269 cost, afterwards i can run it for 8 to 10 years then get a $40 rebuild for it and continue on

 

also the last i checked theres only one possible way to repair a damaged ecu (assuming you got the solder skills) if your lucky and all it has is blown cap you can change

the damaged cap and it will come back to life, but if its anything else you'll need to send it in, or pay $300 for a refurb unit.

 

Why does this keep boiling over into a carb vs efi debate? to each their own.......but

 

Actually ill end the debate for you, fine carbs suck, they are horrible, i cant stand the fact that i get 24 mpg when the truck was only rated for 20mpg with efi in 1986, its horrendous, i also hate that my truck always starts and all i have to do is pull the choke lever to get it running in the morning. I also hate that it never has random electronic failures that require me to get a can of maf spray out and try to solve the codes from the jack in the box under my seat which all pertain to parts of the efi.

 

Ok so some of that was sarcasm, but if carbs suck and are so lousy, so be it, I love my sucky lousy carb (no pun intended).

 

With that being said several of you gave great answers and points which were exactly what i was thinking that the ka24 was a affordable, easy to come by, drop in replacement to get your datto back on the road, with the benefit of providing more power than its predecessor.

 

 

edit: whether you feel carbs or great or they suck butt from a straw, either way you cant deny they do their job as intended and have been able to that job for over 90 years.

 

 

 

theres nothing wrong with the 2014 titan man, its a sick ass truck, have you driven one?

 

additionally, that is just not true at all, Nissan themselves were even restoring the S30 z's for the interum period between when the 300zx was not produced and the period when the 350z was, Nissan factory restored Z's themselves, so i dont think all datsuns would be rusting in a yard somewhere, even Nissan seems to care about their lineage.

 

 

I am not bias, thats my point. I have been running, and tuning carburetors for YEARS, MANY YEARS. tuning them well I might add.

 

 

dude, if your are going to bring reliability in to the mix you already lost the battle. the entire point of EFI is reliability. I drive a 2002 civic SI, the most expensive sensor is $93, and goes out every 150-200,000 miles, you cant even say that for carburetor seals man.

 

and that 24mpg could be 27 maybe even 28-30 with EFI. and it would never go out of tune.

 

you sir are the one who is bias.

 

aditionally I used to sit next to the track listening to 7000 horsepower drag cars doing 3.23s, they use carburetors, know why? absolute all out full throttle flow numbers, there is your carb advantage if you want real honesty. but on the road, carbs do not have a single advantage, any ideas to the latter are frankly daydreaming.

 

 

and BTW $269 is not an expensive carb or a cheap one, but you can pick up a full Megasquirt for cheaper used. I bought mine for $250 brand new with all the harnesses and relay box, just needs a few sensors, which is basically $100, so there goes you expensive componentry argument as well.

[HRH]

As for EFI breaking, I've rebuilt the motor, but it's still using the original '92 EFI system.  It's crapped one injector in the last year.  That was easy to find as all you do is pull the injector plug as it's running and see if one doesn't do anything.  Took me 15 minutes to find that EFI problem.  Replaced injectors, problem solved.  The rest of the system is 182,000 mile old factory Nissan.  And it's agitated factory Nissan because I've screwed with it.

 

It comes down to the argument of lifestyle.  If you want a subsistence lifestyle, great, go be one with nature and leave nary a mark.  You'll live long and feel good about yourself.  However, some of us like progress, and thus live in the now, not in the old.  I'll still build an L motor before I build a Z24.  And I'd still build a KA now before I'll build an L.  I loved my L, it ran like a raped ape and was very fun.  But it's old, non-used parts are getting harder to come by, and the KA head in both versions WILL OUTFLOW AN L, as much as I love the L.

[nerdistmonk]

I can see this thread isnt going to go beyond bashing back and forth over carbs and efi, I said carbs suck (which is my way of forfeiting the debate i didnt want to have), ive pointed out their flaws on my own threads, im not a hippie i just like to use the parts the truck came with because well...erm thats why i bought the truck was to ummm keep it, i just happen to like carbs, im sorry i mentioned my truck having a carb and perhaps im sorry for opening a project thread which is more like opening pandora's box apparently.

 

I never said they were better. Not. One. Time. But i did say they work and do their job well and they are cheaper to keep around than an efi setup.

 

The injectors for my truck are $231 ea plus shipping, i possibly needed two of them plus a maf sensor, it seemed logical to go to carb and forfeit all that grief.

 

I like carbs, you like efi, agree to disagree. Good day sir.