izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 So I noticed a metal on metal sound. At first i assumed water pump bearings were shot. However, I pulled the alt belt and the noise was still there. Loud as fuck too. i realized it was coming from the back of the motor / front of the trans. So here is the carnage. First, I will say I noticed the bottom bolt on the starter was slightly loose. Enough so I could wiggle the starter but not enough to loosen it by hand. Second, the back of the flex teeth are grinding on something, and if you look at the starter the same side of those teeth are grinding. To me it seems like the starter is getting jammed and not releasing. Making this happen. Any input / Thoughts?? Quote Link to comment
Guest 510kamikazifreak Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Was it(the motor,)an automatic in the before life? Quote Link to comment
banzai510(hainz) Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 I just replace my starter on my 521. the teeth on my starter look like that.. flywheel is ok. my starter was acting up. when pulled the the round bushing at the end was being pushed out at the end . new O rileys is not sounding right also. However the days of the cheap nissan rebuilds are over. I wish I would have gotton more at 50$ apc back in the day. Now they almost same price as a GR unit. http://tsimportedautomotive.com/gearreductionstarters.html I heard of a guy who would flip the starter ring on flex/flywheel . He had a opel and no flywheels could be found. this was the cheapest repair back in the day. Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 71 datsun 510. L16 / Borg warner auto (i believe borg warner) (yes always been an automatic. It didn't do this a year ago when I had it, does now though.) FWIW. Nobody has done anything to the car except install an electric fuel pump. the pack of cigs i left in the car and my empty gatorade bottle was right where i left it :rofl: hainz, when I pulled the starter just now there was a little bushing at the end of the rod on the starter, but it wasn't chewed up and no marks on it. So i dont think its getting touched or hit. Did you see the pictures? Also did installing a new starter help? I hate to install a new starter and it not be the problem. I can't tell if the starter gear is getting stuck out for sure when the car is started. Even if so why is the ring gear hitting the starter? I just put the starter back in, and its the same thing. Also, if you noticed the starter. It looks like the ring gear is hitting the starter a little bit. Any help would be appreciated. Trying to get this fixed asap. Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 also I should state that the noise doesn't happen the moment the car starts. it happens about 3-5 seconds after the car is running Quote Link to comment
Laecaon Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Thats exactly how my starter and flexplate looked in my car. Quite often made a loud screech when starting the car. Scared a few old ladies walking in front once. Quote Link to comment
Guest 510kamikazifreak Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Starter is still trying to start, after it is running.. Take it apart and clean,If you have a gear reduction,throw it in,the flex plate/Ring gear will love you for it And hope that it hasnt taken a chunk out of the ring gear Quote Link to comment
MikeRL411 Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 The next time you remove the starter for trouble shooting this problem, there's one thing to check. Look closely at the "fork" that moved forward to engage the pinion with the ring gear. They do break one of the two "fingers" that press the starter main shaft forward. Sneaky failure mode. Often just a slight grind as the gear engaged the flex plate giving the wear pattern you show because at least the remaining finger manages to move the starter shaft. In the worst case the remnants of the broken fork jam the free movement of the starter shaft. The shaft may just exhibit slow motion and erratic engagement or in the worst case jam the starter in the connected,rear or worse partially engaged position [from which it proceeds to eat the ring gear]. Good luck, and I mean it in the positive fashion. Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 ^^ Cool story bro. but its not doing it when I start the car, its about 3-5 seconds after i start the car :rofl: Though, I can see the lolz in scaring old ladies :devil: Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 The next time you remove the starter for trouble shooting this problem, there's one thing to check. Look closely at the "fork" that moved forward to engage the pinion with the ring gear. They do break one of the two "fingers" that press the starter main shaft forward. Sneaky failure mode. Often just a slight grind as the gear engaged the flex plate giving the wear pattern you show because at least the remaining finger manages to move the starter shaft. In the worst case the remnants of the broken fork jam the free movement of the starter shaft. The shaft may just exhibit slow motion and erratic engagement or in the worst case jam the starter in the connected,rear or worse partially engaged position [from which it proceeds to eat the ring gear]. Good luck, and I mean it in the positive fashion. Starter is still trying to start, after it is running..Take it apart and clean,If you have a gear reduction,throw it in,the flex plate/Ring gear will love you for it And hope that it hasnt taken a chunk out of the ring gear I see what both of you are saying. Thank you. Question... If the starter is trying to start, after the car is running (or the gear pops back out and is meshing with the ring gear after the car is running) would that cause the ring gear to hit the starter as shown in the picture? I guess I can get a cheap starter from autozone and install it. If it cures the problem then Ill find a new starter. if not, what else could it be? Quote Link to comment
I'm BLUE Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 New starter would likely/hopefully cure the problem :) ( or known good one... swap from another rig not used ? ) shake the sucker and if it clunks any more than a little bit ,,, it's gone :) I've seen one fall apart internally/disintegrate after it's last spin. Long shot ( very not likely ) is flex-plate/flywheel spacing , but you say it happens only at a certain time from there on out so 95% probably not haha. Quote Link to comment
Guest 510kamikazifreak Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 If the starter is trying to start, after the car is running (or the gear pops back out and is meshing with the ring gear after the car is running) would that cause the ring gear to hit the starter as shown in the picture? I guess I can get a cheap starter from autozone and install it. If it cures the problem then Ill find a new starter. if not, what else could it be? Flex-plate(sound it out flex...) :rofl: No gear reductions in the pile? Best save for a ring gear that has had some taken away unwillingly Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Ring gear isn't in bad shape. Sold my gear reduction cuz I didn't own any l series. Oops. No spare starters :/ az here I come Quote Link to comment
MikeRL411 Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Question... If the starter is trying to start, after the car is running (or the gear pops back out and is meshing with the ring gear after the car is running) would that cause the ring gear to hit the starter as shown in the picture? Absolutely! Starter pinions and ring gears do not make beautiful music together. Pattern is the same as I found when my RL411 starter took a crap due to broken "shift fork", I still have the remnants as a souvenir. Fortunately this was so long age that Datsun "foreign parts" in Yokohama sent me the piece parts I needed to rebuild my starter. Don't ask, Renault killed off all the dedicated service for older Datsuns and s**t canned all the over 10 year old parts. Depending on the generation of Borg Warner auto transmission, if it's a British unit you may find flex plates, This transmission was used in most English and continental/Scandanavian e.g. SAAB [and rumor has it even Chrystler] cars. Mercury Capris used it also, so a pack rat Ford dealer just might have one in his private stash. Quote Link to comment
Guest 510kamikazifreak Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Like DTP said shake it if it clunks more... try giving it(starter) the fix all treatment first? Sometimes "helps" 1 Quote Link to comment
I'm BLUE Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Like DTP said shake it if it clunks more...try giving it(starter) the fix all treatment first? Sometimes "helps" :lol: ... outta likes !! +1 Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Thanks guys. I'll buy a starter and test it tomorrow. I really hope this helps. Heading home now to yank starterand shake it. The gear on the starter isn't sticking out when its not running so hard to diagnose Quote Link to comment
Guest 510kamikazifreak Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 :lol: ... outta likes !! +1 :lol: Quote Link to comment
I'm BLUE Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Thanks guys. I'll buy a starter and test it tomorrow. I really hope this helps. Heading home now to yank starterand shake it. The gear on the starter isn't sticking out when its not running so hard to diagnose Hoping it's as easy as that ! Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Starter ordered from autozone. Really hope its just the starter thats taking a shit :( I know the guy who put this car together so i doubt the flex plate is loose. Once i omnomnom some food I am going to remove the starter, shake it and see what I hear. Then try and move the flex plate to see if theres any play there Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 When in it's 'at rest' position, there is a strong spring that pulls that starter gear away from the starter ring gear. And keeps them apart. (for good reason) If the starter star gear is loose than this is the problem Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 I just removed the starter and brought it in the house. I shook it as advised, it makes a little noise but doesn't sound horrible. I know about the spring you mention, I took a flat head screw driver to the gear and popped it out. It pulls it back in. its hard to gauge how much force it takes for me to pop the gear out, maybe its worn... Idk. ive never had a starter do this before. They either stick out and make a horrible crunching noise, or just quit working. have never heard or seen one do this before. Again, look at the starter. the flex plate is rubbing on it. Its dark, and windy out. Will check tomorrow when I get home to see if flex plate is wobbly/wiggly. Quote Link to comment
banzai510(hainz) Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 yes th e O riley starter helped. But its not going to last more than 2 years just by the sound of it. I think it was like 39$. What you expect. Gear reduction or not its where and who rebuilds them that makes a difference. The Nissan rebuilds where far the best I ever had. But brand new would be best if they even exist. Well they do its Called a Tilton Super Starter(just a moded 280z Gear reduction). made for fords and chevys. They change the nose to fit the trans. Quote Link to comment
izzo Posted March 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Turns out that the bottom two bolts on the trans... One missing one half way out. Causing the motor and tans to not be mated at the bottom. There was at a good sized gap. Pics coming soon. Pretty sure this was the problem Quote Link to comment
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