Z24 Turbo????

[datzenmike]

Get a KA24 E or DE with transmission (though you can use your 5 speed) from a D21 Hardbody. That 140 HP and no turbo. ]2eDeYe on here sell the engine mounts for this. If you don't want to mess with EFI pull the CAS and spindle and substitute an L20B distributor, make an aluminum adapter plate and mount your Z24 carburetor or a 32/36 Weber. 

[LigerZero89]

Thanks Mike…. I’ll save my money and continue to look for a ka24e. I’m in no rush so, I’ll slowly get the things I need so that when I the time comes to make the swap, it won’t turn into a nightmare.

[Madkaw]

The 720 4x4 is tough to come up with a reasonable motor swap . I have been slowly trying to improve the performance on mine , but honestly have made some mistakes and made it slower - like : larger tires on a truck that already had 3.9:1 gear set . 2 WD 71c trans that has a taller first gear . A performance cam on a low CR engine . 
 

I have started to prep for more speed . I have done a Megasquirt swap EFI which has given full tuning control . I have a water cooled turbo from a STI - might be too big , but we will see . I have a head that has the ports matched for the KA24de turbo manifold . I have a spare motor that I will prep for the turbo motor . Probably won’t do forged pistons . Don’t want to invest that much in an experiment that might fail because HG’s might not hold . Probably will go with ARP head studs . I will reface the block and head . Maybe even use a MLS gasket if I can get one . 
 

Meanwhile I am going to bite the bullet and buy smaller tires . I might also get a Kameari cam sprocket and play with some cam timing - like advancing it . I’d like to bump the CR on my current motor - but that probably means pulling the head and shaving . 

[datzenmike]

Looks like a 200sx engine.

 

You would need some dyno time to realize any gains from an adjustable cam sprocket. And the price!!!! You can advance or retard the can about 4 degrees each way using the timing marks on the stock sprocket. You won't feel the difference. Advancing the cam events slightly favors high RPM gains. Retarding the cam favors low and mid range torque.

 

Get 26" diameter tires.

Get a 4.375 H-190 third member.

Get a 32/36 Weber if you haven't already (use the money saved from not buying the adjustable cam sprocket)

Z22 is 8.42 and Z24 is 8.2 both are pathetic compression numbers but ok for 6-8 pounds of boost.

2" exhaust and turbo muffler.

 

 

[Madkaw]

8 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Looks like a 200sx engine.

 

You would need some dyno time to realize any gains from an adjustable cam sprocket. And the price!!!! You can advance or retard the can about 4 degrees each way using the timing marks on the stock sprocket. You won't feel the difference. Advancing the cam events slightly favors high RPM gains. Retarding the cam favors low and mid range torque.

 

Get 26" diameter tires.

Get a 4.375 H-190 third member.

Get a 32/36 Weber if you haven't already (use the money saved from not buying the adjustable cam sprocket)

Z22 is 8.42 and Z24 is 8.2 both are pathetic compression numbers but ok for 6-8 pounds of boost.

2" exhaust and turbo muffler.

 

 

It’s a 200sx intake on a z24 . Why in the world would I go with a Weber - lol. 
I think you have your timing comments are backwards . I would advance timing for LOW END performance . This would give me a nice bump in compression if I advance cakve timing .  The Kameari sprocket are about 150$ which is worth it because you can change timing without worrying about dropping the chain . And I think you would feel a difference . 

[datzenmike]

Moving the cam timing events later as in the intake closing farther up the cylinder would not benefit low speed but higher RPMs. Likewise an earlier closing of the intake does not. The adjustable cam isn't a miracle worker as it also adjusts all valve events. For better results the entire cam profile should be considered and a different cam selected. Keep in mind that the Z heads do not breathe as well as they should and this design is for low and mid range power. For a turbo application the stock 'mild' cam is probably best. The goal should be getting the turbo spooled asap. The theoretical 'red line' on a Z24 is only 6,250.

 

Yes EFI! It was late last night is my only excuse.

 

$150! I must be thinking of some other product of theirs. I thought they were like $500. Maybe that's the adjustable sprocket? and you have the the adjustable smaller sprocket below the cam sprocket that eliminates the tensioner?

 

With the Z series head you should consider an inter cooler as well

[Madkaw]

14 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Moving the cam timing events later as in the intake closing farther up the cylinder would not benefit low speed but higher RPMs. Likewise an earlier closing of the intake does not. The adjustable cam isn't a miracle worker as it also adjusts all valve events. For better results the entire cam profile should be considered and a different cam selected. Keep in mind that the Z heads do not breathe as well as they should and this design is for low and mid range power. For a turbo application the stock 'mild' cam is probably best. The goal should be getting the turbo spooled asap. The theoretical 'red line' on a Z24 is only 6,250.

 

Yes EFI! It was late last night is my only excuse.

 

$150! I must be thinking of some other product of theirs. I thought they were like $500. Maybe that's the adjustable sprocket? and you have the the adjustable smaller sprocket below the cam sprocket that eliminates the tensioner?

 

With the Z series head you should consider an inter cooler as well

Maybe a difference in wording but you stated advancing cam timing would benefit higher rpm - that’s not the case . Closing the intake valve sooner will bump compression but also benefit low end performance .

Yes you can just buy the sprocket for a reasonable price . The whole tensioner kit is another story . That’s about 600$ which I have on my Z . 
I would only do a turbo with an intercooler . 

[datzenmike]

Yes it's hard to get my head around advance/retard cam timing. Turning the cam reverse or backwards against engine rotation (seems like retarding) moves the cam opening and closing events earlier. Turning the cam with the engine rotation (seems like advancing) makes the events later or retarded. But yes earlier events (mostly the intake valve) favor low speed, later events higher speeds.

 

 

[RetroRocket]

How about using my centrifugal-clutch based timing sprocket device  for VVT? 

 

It works on the principle of the mechanical advance mechanism in distributors. Or a centrifugal clutch on an entry level mini-bike or go kart except clutch material works in oil (A/T source friction material).

 

Flyweights vs spring tension. As camshaft rpm increases, the cam timing retards by how much and when according to a curve set by selectable changeable weights (change in mass) which is resisted by the counterforcing selectable changeable springs); the amount of maximum valve timing retard (limit) is selected and set (slot and dowel). The onset of activation and limit is tuned for the principle engine speed that matters most for the specific engine and use.

 

I have a car that used the first variable valve timing mechanism in a production car.

What car is it?

 

[RetroRocket]

I'm not saying it worked via the mechanism I just desribed but still it was innovated by this engine maker

[datzenmike]

While you might get some advance/retard on the cam the intake/exhaust overlap does not change. The gain would be slight. In addition you don't want lots of valve overlap on a turbo engine usually a stock cam is best.

[RetroRocket]

It was an emission control related measure that spurred the design.

But that doesn't mean it can't be repurposed.

I used to convert early '70's Datsun emission control dual-point distributors in function to performance dual point (poor mans' Mallory).

[RetroRocket]

Alfa Romeo 1987.

[RetroRocket]

Variable Valve Timing (not incorporating variable lift) doesn't change the intake/exhaust overlap; that is physically ground into the cam.

The timing of camshaft events changes relative to the crank position when valve timing is varied.

 

The application to turbo vs na vs low rpm use vs high rpm use factors are used to produce the optimal curve (rate of change/rpm and degree limitation of change/range) desired.

 

Oh well, back to the Tour de France...

[RetroRocket]

Above I'm referring to a single camshaft engine re LSA and overlap fixed by cam grind. Those parameters do change with dohc. If only one VVT gear/pulley is used it is put on the intake cam.

 

With single cam it is only the basic principle: cam advance for low end; cam retard at high rpm. With dohc there are far more dynamic effects of varying the LSA and overlap.

 

A single cam variable valve timing device might benefit a turbo application moreso than n/a application. idnk.

 

[livemeyer]

Wow it's been a long time since I've been on this forum.  I've been tweaking/tuning with my 85 Z24 the last few months, particularly with jetting for my Weber 38 Outlaw.  Also replaced plugs and coils, wires and cap and rotor.  Purring pretty good now.

 

A quick backstory: 2003 blew head gasket. Got engine rebuilt, including a mystery grind performance cam off eBay.  Engine runs poorly unless distributor timing is maxxed out.  I suspect maybe the oil pump or distributor is off a tooth.  Had previously suspected maybe the cam pin was in the wrong hole on the timing gear.  With the cam, pacesetter header and Weber 38 truck screams at 3,000 to 6300 rpm, but lacks the torque of the original stock engine. 

 

Although I would guess the engine's power output is 20-25% better than stock, I'd still like to get more out of it.  If it's maybe 125-132hp right now, I'd like to reach 160-175hp.  Been considering the blow-thru turbo setup.  Considering a kit from eBay that would include the KA manifold which I would port match, T3/T4 turbo, plus the carbiehat I've seen from a Aussie or New Zealand web page promoting their Z24 turbo conversion kit.

 

Also thinking if my engine's timing quirks might be a positive for a turbo setup, or at least maybe a turbo setup can alleviate some of the current engine's issues.  Understanding that not modifying the engine's fuel delivery system can cause the engine to run lean, I find my current setup runs too rich.  I dropped the main jets down from 145 to 135 and then again down to 125 to try to get a leaner mixture.  I'm now back at 145 because the transition from the idle circuit to the leaned-out acceleration circuit was very poor.  Perhaps keeping the richer running tune with the bigger jets can be offset by the lean condition often found when running a turbo.

 

Also, in regards to timing, wondering if timing can be retarded slightly with the installation of the turbo.  Regardless the question of the oil pump or distributor being off a tooth, just reigning in the timing just a bit could prove helpful. 

 

Q: where can one find this Kameari adjustable timing gear?

Q: How easy or difficult is it to pull the oil pump and adjust its position?

Q: Are there any ways of changing the advance curve in the distributor?

Q: Can a Kameari timing gear be easily installed?

Q: Can a cam swap be easily done without removing the front timing cover and the head? 

[datzenmike]

Kameari adjustable timing gear not needed. This adjusts the cam timing only and has nothing to do with ignition timing. There are three possible adjustment positions on the stock cam sprocket to correct chain slack. Generally the #2 position is used on the Z24. Save your $600 or what ever ridiculous price they are now.

 

 

Ignition timing and distributor position...

 

Did you check for spark on both sides??? If one side not firing the engine will act retarded and will run much better if timing is advanced. Better to run with both sets of plugs firing.

Adjusting is easy. Set accurately to TDC compression stroke on #1. Remove distributor and look in hole. This is what you should see...

note: the small/large half moon position.

 

If not remove the 4 x 12mm bolts and drop oil pump pump and drive spindle above it. Reposition the spindle and install to get the same as the picture above. A helper watching helps. Have rags handy for the oil drips. At this position above you should have lots of ignition timing adjustment. 

 

Advance curve...

 

The advance springs and weights can be changed and modified to bring the timing in sooner or later. I would find a shop that specializes in this. Do you know what advance changes you want? Timing is critical in a turbo engine I wouldn't mess with it unless I knew what I wanted from it.

 

Forget the Kameari adjustable cam sprocket.

 

 

Yes the cam can be removed/replaced without removing the timing chain cover BUT it requires that the timing chain tensioner be blocked from falling out when the chain goes slack. The tensioner is spring loaded and once out, it cannot be put back in without timing cover removal. Turbo engines run best on mild or stock cams with smallish overlap. 

 

 

Once out it does not go back in...

 

 

You will want some boost controlled fuel pump that keeps the  fuel pressure a few pounds above the intake air pressure. 8 PSI on the carburetor will push back on 3 PSI fuel pressure.

 

You'll want some form of ignition retard when boosting. Higher compression from a turbo will require less ignition timing advance. (retarded)

 

 

Read this book several times... then read again.

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/04/maximum_boost.pdf

 

The physics of boosting will never change but the equipment used will, and has become much better.

[Madkaw]

Kameari sprockets are less than 200$ I think . I run one on my build . I run the cam advanced about 3 degrees to build a little more cylinder pressure . I have that exhaust manifold you refer too and a head ported to match but doubt I’ll ever do it . If you are interested in it email me 

sfinnerty1018@gmail.com 

 

Without complete ignition control turbo would be tough . I like the way mine runs with stock cam and ported EFI . I run MS so I can do about whatever . I think I’m going to do an electric supercharger 

Edited June 12 by Madkaw

[LigerZero89]

I know this has been covered before but, other than a ka24e/de, what other “newer” engines could be a candidate for an engine swap? We all know the ka’s are the easiest but as stated before, they’re getting harder to find. Also, finding parts for these engines are getting harder and harder. I saw someone doing a VQ swap on a hardbody, so stands to reason it could work on a 720 as well. Not saying I would do one but, there have to be other engine options for our trucks. It'd be nice to just get some genuine ideas rolling.

[datzenmike]

The KA swap also fits the stock Z series transmission, something that won't happen on any other engine swap.

[Spiff]

On 6/12/2024 at 9:29 AM, livemeyer said:

 

Although I would guess the engine's power output is 20-25% better than stock, I'd still like to get more out of it.  If it's maybe 125-132hp right now, I'd like to reach 160-175hp.  Been considering the blow-thru turbo setup.  Considering a kit from eBay that would include the KA manifold which I would port match, T3/T4 turbo, plus the carbiehat I've seen from a Aussie or New Zealand web page promoting their Z24 turbo conversion kit.

 

Perhaps keeping the richer running tune with the bigger jets can be offset by the lean condition often found when running a turbo.

 

 

 

Are we talking engine or wheel horsepower? My junkyard Z20E+T made a 168hp at the wheels back in 2017 with a stock rb25det turbo running around 0.7bar boost.
I returned in '21 with a Z24ET that ended up with 200hp at the wheels, same turbo running around 1-1.1bar (so around 14psi i think).  Unfortunately I killed a valve due to some no lift shift action later that year and that was the end of that, it will be rebuilt at some point but for now i'm just cruising in a low boost z22

 

Carbys and turbos are just a hassle in my opinion in todays world, offcourse the problem with the Z engine is there's not exactly a whole lot of efi manifolds floating around...

But anyways, you dont wanna be running lean with a turbo, thats a blown engine waiting to happen...

 

[datzenmike]

Japan had a Z18ET. Here we got Z20E and Z22E engines in the '80-'83 S110 200sx. All Z20 and Z22 heads are notched for injectors even if for use with a carb.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

15 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Japan had a Z18ET. Here we got Z20E and Z22E engines in the '80-'83 S110 200sx. All Z20 and Z22 heads are notched for injectors even if for use with a carb.

I like your advice from yesterday. Swap out the cylinder head and build an LZ instead. From now on, every time I see a thread about improving the Z motor, I'm going to quote you on that.

[RLJ]

Mike, who makes that cam chain tool in thie picture from post dated June 12?  Nicest one I’ve  ever seen. 

 

×

[iceman510]

I think that version may no longer be made.

 

Replacement:  https://www.amazon.com/Alltrade-648832-Nissan-Timing-Holding/dp/B0002Q8TVO/ref=dp_prsubs_sccl_1/146-3120773-6147831?pd_rd_w=OK23d&content-id=amzn1.sym.3ad0ccdf-fd9f-4ec9-a400-2b1165fdcd58&pf_rd_p=3ad0ccdf-fd9f-4ec9-a400-2b1165fdcd58&pf_rd_r=QBPVSNSQAA0FE25FRNEB&pd_rd_wg=SmMMX&pd_rd_r=9e137e25-c4f9-400c-9346-7d2c3ed1e79f&pd_rd_i=B0002Q8TVO&psc=1

 

Says 80 and up engines, so maybe for the Z series.

Edited August 14 by iceman510