Plymouth Fire Arrow

[Ooph!]

Go to Tirerack.com and search by wheel size there are a few options that may work for you.

 

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/sizes/results.jsp?diameter=13

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Ooph!

[EDM620]

On 8/23/2023 at 3:51 PM, Ooph! said:

Go to Tirerack.com and search by wheel size there are a few options that may work for you.

Going plus sized (+1 = 14" rim, etc) is bound to make additional selection of tires (& rims) available to you. Key factor is to keep the overall diameter as close as possible to stock as this will ensure your cars performance remains as intended. Research re-search and measure...

[powderfinger]

The car has been lowered and wider than factory wheels are on it. I really like how the car sits and handles in it's current state. The factory tires were 165/80/13 now it has 205/50/13. The current tires are over 2" smaller diameter and a little over 1.5" wider than factory. I need to get a tire that is similar height to the current ones to keep the stance as is which is why I will likely get the Michelins that are 195/55/13. BFG makes a 205/60/13 that look like the tires that are currently on the car but the taller height could be a clearance issue. Will have to investigate further once I have the car in the shop this weekend.

[powderfinger]

Got the car this weekend and rolled it into the shop. Going back to get the other car this coming Friday or Saturday. I also got all the parts as well. I need to clean up my shop some before pulling the motor. May be a month or two before I can dive into it but we'll see. May end up being a winter project but not sure I am willing to wait that long lol. I'll get pics of the parts as I go through them.

 

[iceman510]

I would go with the 205 60 13 tires, as they are more readily available.  Likely much closer to stock diameter also. 

 

What size are the panasports (width/offset)?

[powderfinger]

3 minutes ago, iceman510 said:

What size are the panasports (width/offset)?

I'll have to take a look when I get home. I will also have to look closely at the front to see if there is clearance for the taller tires. I do agree though that they are much more available. It's also nice that I can get the same BFGs in that size. Normally I don't care for white letter tires but I think they look good on this car.

 

The car also came with a set of 14" wheels but I like the look of these much better.

Edited August 28, 2023 by powderfinger

[powderfinger]

Everyone loves picks so here are some more after unloading the truck. Got plenty of manuals, spare trim and rubber, two doors, three fenders, and passenger side back quarter that I didn't take a pic of, one set of spare aftermarket 14" wheels, along with a set of factory 14" wheels, three blocks two of which are in good condition the other would likely need to be re-sleeved to use, also got a knifed crank for the block on the left that I didn't take a pic of along with plenty of other spare interior and engine bits in the yellow bins. Oh yeah and the race car.

 

[powderfinger]

Time for an update. I wish I was one who could remember to take pictures of progress along the way but it's just something I always forget to do. I have been working on the Fire Arrow off and on over the past couple of months. Just a quick catch-up for anyone interested, I test drove the car. In the middle of the test drive it completely lost oil pressure and started ticking. I ended up buying the car along with another one and half cars and all the spare parts the guy owned.

 

I dropped the oil pan to take a look at the timing chain and the oil pump drive chain hoping to get lucky and I did! This engine has a smaller chain in front of the timing chain that drives the oil pump and balance shafts. If you look closely in the pic below you can see that chain is broken and hanging down.

 

 

Now it was just a matter of fixing that and hoping the engine wasn't damaged from being driven ~0.5 miles with no oil pressure. The chain breaking also broke a tooth off of the gear that drives it but luckily I had a spare. I went ahead and deleted the balance shafts while I was in there since the drivers side balance shaft bearing is a point of failure on these engines. Glad I did this because that bearing was definitely not long for this world. Got all that back together, fired it up, and to my amazement the engine sounded healthy and was holding really good oil pressure. After swapping out rear diffs due to the one in it whining really bad (I'll try to remember to take some pics of that). The gear wear is very visible, looks like someone assembled it with improper gear mesh. The ring gear is wearing on the outer 1/8" of the gear.

 

Here is a pic of the car after it's maiden voyage of around 15 miles. I just drove the car 25 miles to work and so far so good. So far only issues are some rattling I need to find which is typical of a 70s Japanese car and I can't keep oil from escaping from around the filler cap on the valve cover and getting all over the valve cover and side of the engine.

 

[iceman510]

Good call on removing the balance shafts.  I have done that on all the 4G63 engines I have built.  

 

Is it a screw-on oil cap, or twist-in?  I have replaced just the gaskets on Mitsu screw-in caps before to fix the oil leak.

Edited February 15, 2024 by iceman510

[powderfinger]

It is a twist in and doesn't fit very snug at all. Shouldn't be hard to fix. The car definitely has a "buzz" around 3000RPMs especially when suddenly off the throttle and decelerating. I am guessing this is a combo of new exhaust and mostly the deletion of the balance shafts, although I don't remember noticing it on the short 10 mile drive I did before putting the exhaust on the car. 

[datzenmike]

There has to be a 'rubber' washer seal. Check it out. 

 

A co worker bought a new Arrow in '76? there a bouts. I read his brochure and that's the first time I heard of a balance shaft. I think it's for 2nd order harmonics, could be wrong, but it is extra spinning weight. Does it spin in the oposite direction to crank shaft?

 

I heard that the practical limit for a four cylinder displacement is about 2 1/2 liters. Maybe after this that harmonic is really noticeable?

[powderfinger]

It actually had two balance shafts. One is ran off a chain that turns the same direction as the crank (drivers side). The oil pump is connected to that same chain and the oil pump has an internal gear that turns the second passenger side balance shaft (opposite direction) I found the pic below that shows the setup. Ignore the comments in blue it was just on the pic I found. I circled the two balance shafts in red. The gear that is missing teeth in this photo is the same gear that was missing a tooth or two on my engine.

 

A common problem with these engines is the upper right balance shaft bearing fails, puts extra stress on the small chain turning it, and since that chain is connected to the oil pump when it breaks bad things happen.

 

[powderfinger]

When deleting the balance shafts you remove them, install a sleeve blocking the oil passage to the upper right shaft, install a small "dummy" shaft to fit in the location of the left balance shaft, then use a smaller chain routed like below.

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by powderfinger

[DudeinSC]

Had a 1980 Fire Arrow in the gold and brown paint scheme when I was in high school back in '84. LOVED that car. What fun to drive. It was a little pocket rocket. Sister totaled it while I was in basic training. Never missed a car more.

[powderfinger]

14 hours ago, DudeinSC said:

Had a 1980 Fire Arrow in the gold and brown paint scheme when I was in high school back in '84. LOVED that car. What fun to drive. It was a little pocket rocket. Sister totaled it while I was in basic training. Never missed a car more.

I tried to buy one in Tenn. a few months ago in that exact paint scheme but for whatever reason the guy stopped responding to my messages and a week later the add was gone. I guess he sold it to someone else for whatever reason.

[scorpion]

april of 2025...i still own a 1979 plymouth fire arrow, have been using as a daily driver until about a year ago...after over three hundred thousand miles one of the exhaust rocker arms and one intake valve broke at the same time. she is still waiting on me to pull the head and see what i find...absolutly love this car...i have owned it for almost 40yrs...if you have gotten these two jewels i hope you find me sometime and we can bs about how great these cars are...

[ggzilla]

wow that is really cool

On 2/15/2024 at 5:32 AM, powderfinger said:

[ggzilla]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:02 PM, datzenmike said:

heard that the practical limit for a four cylinder displacement is about 2 1/2 liters. Maybe after this that harmonic is really noticeable?

 

yea I've heard that too. However there have been larger four cylinder engines. some a lot larger. With noticeable vibrations, requiring special motor mount materials and harmonic balancer crank pulleys. But that didn't stop the vibrations

 

Mitsubishi perfected the balance shaft. First invented and patented by British engineer Frederick W. Lanchester in 1907, Mitsubishi improved on this with the 1975 Astron engine. Later, Porsche licensed the technology from Mitsubishi. Now all the larger 4 bangers have them

 

so what's the reason people delete them from these old chryslers? Do they were out, or does the chain drive go bad?

[datzenmike]

Simply lowering spinning mass?

[powderfinger]

yep, let's the car rev quicker. The upper right balance shaft bearing is also a known weak spot for wear.

Edited April 5, 2025 by powderfinger

[powderfinger]

21 hours ago, scorpion said:

f you have gotten these two jewels i hope you find me sometime and we can bs about how great these cars are...

Yep, still got them along with two more 76 models that are in really bad shape but still have some good parts on them. I think i could likely get one of them running if I wanted. It has the 1.6L in it. My Fire Arrow has the 2.4L G54B.

[iceman510]

On 4/5/2025 at 12:03 AM, ggzilla said:

so what's the reason people delete them from these old chryslers? Do they were out, or does the chain drive go bad?

 

In the later 4G63 Mitsu engines, spinning them at higher revs sometimes causing balance shaft bearing failures.  This cascades to timing belt breakage, potential oil pump damage, lots of valves hitting pistons, and lots of rebuilding required.  I don't have experience with what happens in the earlier type engines.

 

I have removed them from at least three 4G63's I have built over the years.

[ggzilla]

good to know for when I do my Datsun siruis swap

 

did you find the increased vibration annoying, or just barely noticeable?

 

4G63T in a Datsun 1200

[powderfinger]

36 minutes ago, iceman510 said:

 

In the later 4G63 Mitsu engines, spinning them at higher revs sometimes causing balance shaft bearing failures.  This cascades to timing belt breakage, potential oil pump damage, lots of valves hitting pistons, and lots of rebuilding required.  I don't have experience with what happens in the earlier type engines.

 

I have removed them from at least three 4G63's I have built over the years.

 

Similar in the older engines. The upper right shaft bearing fails and causes the chain to break. There are two chains in the G54B, the one that drives the balance shafts doesn't affect timing but it does turn the oil pump so the engine keeps running fine but with no oil pressure. Long story short, bad things happen pretty fast.

Edited April 7, 2025 by powderfinger