New brake thread

[22350]

Hello All.  The old brake thread was so meandering that I wanted to start a new one, specifically related to what my last issue.

 

Everying appears to be working normally now, except one thing.  When I park the truck overnight, the rear brakes bind in the morning, until I drive the truck for 20 minutes.

 

They are adjusted by going all the way tight and backing off 12 clicks.  They are just barely touching when adjustment is finished and the car drives normally.  The next morning they are sticking. This problem only started after replacing the adjuster retaining clips. 

The front brakes are adjusted the same way, but don't bind the next morning.

 

Have solved the too tight parking brake cable

Have solved the loose adjuster clips

Having solved the master cyclinder check valve issue, including peddle preload.

Edited April 30, 2023 by 22350

[22350]

here it is... about the same on both sides

 

[datzenmike]

Seems normal to me. If you can turn by hand they are not binding. If you want add another click loosening.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Did you use any lube on the retaining clips or on the adjuster?

 

Try this - stab the brakes hard first thing in the morning and see if it sticks then. If not, then there are a couple other directions to pursue.

[22350]

45 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Did you use any lube on the retaining clips or on the adjuster?

 

Try this - stab the brakes hard first thing in the morning and see if it sticks then. If not, then there are a couple other directions to pursue.

Lot's of lube

 

I have tried that, but will try again

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by 22350

[22350]

Okay,

 

This morning I checked the rears, after the adjustment last night.  The rear right was too tight.  The rear left was less tight.

 

I did the drive in reverse and pull the parking brake.  I also tried reverse and forward punching the peddle.  No effect.

 

When I drive, they get better, but still seem to be slightly energizing.

 

Should the leading shoe be shorter?  Is there a leading and trailing shoe for the rears?  They appear to be identical.

 

........

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by 22350

[22350]

The shoes have felt like they are energizing all day.  Only when the drums heat up, does the car behave normally. 

 

Why does the manual show the leading shoe as being shorter??

 

 

[datzenmike]

On 4/30/2023 at 1:17 PM, 22350 said:

 

 Can you post a picture of both sides? that shows the entire pairs of shoes??? Your shoes appear to be both identical.

 

 

Most shoe pairs are identical and frontward and rearward can be interchanged or side to side (L&R) without worry. In some cases the brake manufacturer positioned the leading shoe lining differently than the trailing shoe and it's crucial to get them in the correct place.

 

In the case of non equal shoes or actual leading and trailing shoes, if they are put on backwards (leading shoe on the trailing side) the brakes will work better backing up than going forwards. This is because there is a servo effect by having the brake liner positioned farther away from the brake cylinder in the direction of rotation. When the brakes are applied the wheel motion actually pulls the liner into the drum. It's free braking effort that the wheel provides.

 

If not noticed one side will brake better than the other and the vehicle pull to one side. It's also possible to have both leading shoes on one side and the trailing shoes on the other so you have to check.

 

 

 

Leading and trailing shoes... below. Notice the position of the brake lining?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[22350]

14 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

 Can you post a picture of both sides? that shows the entire pairs of shoes??? Your shoes appear to be both identical.

 

 

Most shoe pairs are identical and frontward and rearward can be interchanged or side to side (L&R) without worry. In some cases the brake manufacturer positioned the leading shoe lining differently than the trailing shoe and it's crucial to get them in the correct place.

 

In the case of non equal shoes or actual leading and trailing shoes, if they are put on backwards (leading shoe on the trailing side) the brakes will work better backing up than going forwards. This is because there is a servo effect by having the brake liner positioned farther away from the brake cylinder in the direction of rotation. When the brakes are applied the wheel motion actually pulls the liner into the drum. It's free braking effort that the wheel provides.

 

If not noticed one side will brake better than the other and the vehicle pull to one side. It's also possible to have both leading shoes on one side and the trailing shoes on the other so you have to check.

 

 

 

Leading and trailing shoes... below. Notice the position of the brake lining?

 

 

 

 

 

 

New post to “celebrate”??????

The rear left was obviously binding. So I ripped everything apart again.

The rear right adjuster was stuck.

I  had already addressed the adjusters before., but had been driving it with the extremely lose locking clips.  I think the brake dust got into the grease and when I put the new clips on, the contamination froze that adjuster.  pulled, inspected the backing plate,cleaned and greased.

Took a test drive and we will see how this pans out.

Thanks to @datzenmike for the help.  

 

Will report back

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I was thinking that the drum was heating up and expanding, allowing the "normal" feel. Careful though, if it drags and creates too much heat it might get out of round and start to hop.

[22350]

Well, that wasn't it.  Went to drive this morning and the same issue.  Wheels feel tight and the clutch is chattering under load taking off.

 

Rather than drive it, I pulled the drums again.  THE DRUMS WERE NOT TIGHT, THEY SLIPPED RIGHT OFF.

 

This has to be some sort of "energizing" 

 

Pictures attached

 

Left Rear

 

 

 

Right Rear

 

Right Rear

Edited May 2, 2023 by 22350

[datzenmike]

The shoes are definitely identical so leading and trailing doesn't apply.

 

Once shoes are adjusted the sliding adjuster does not, nor need, to move.  It is free to self adjust as the shoes wear down but this is a slow process.

 

They are tight on take off this morning but are not tight to remove? This does not compute.

 

Check the fronts for tightness. Maybe the front hanging up. Stranger things have happened.

[banzai510(hainz)]

yes if the adjuster can move by your hand from side to side then when driving it will bind to one side instead of findings it middle place to settle.

Since you replaced the clips41213 and 41214 behide the plate I would have assume this fixed it

[22350]

30 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

The shoes are definitely identical so leading and trailing doesn't apply.

 

Once shoes are adjusted the sliding adjuster does not, nor need, to move.  It is free to self adjust as the shoes wear down but this is a slow process.

 

They are tight on take off this morning but are not tight to remove? This does not compute.

 

Check the fronts for tightness. Maybe the front hanging up. Stranger things have happened.

 

Checked the fronts and they are fine

I pulled the drums again.  I checked the parking brake for being over tight, which it wasn't. 

Then I checked the movement of the parking brake lever. 

It appeared fine, BUT I went ahead and lubricated the cable with penetrating oil and I exercised it back and forth spraying penetrating oil down the housing.  

I checked that the parking brake levers were retracting all the way.  

 

This seemed to make the problem much better, but it still feels like it is energizing slightly

 

This is so strange

 

[22350]

The plot thickens.....  

 

I used penetrating oil to work the parking brake cabe, which was moving, back and forth.  I then tested to make sure the lever was retracting all the way.

 

This seemed to improve the binding issue.  So I took the truck to a suspension place I know and had them put a grease gun on the housings.  

 

This seemed to make everything almost normal.  

 

I did notice a little chatter on take off.  VERY SLIGHT.  So slight that I could almost attribute it to overthinking the peddle.

 

Then, when I was almost home, i downshifted at a light and the clutch started chattering like a wheel was locked.  I got the truck the last block and could barely get it into the driveway. The clutch couldn't overcome whatever was stuck

 

 

I  jacked it up and all the wheels are free.

 

For reference

 

Rebuilt e1 engine

New clutch

Rebuilt Transmission

New throw out bearing

New motor mounts

New drive shaft and ujoints

Rebuilt rear end with new ring and pinion at 3.9

New drums

New wheel cyclinders

new brake springs

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by 22350

[nicklp]

Are the three rubber brake hoses really old? Sometimes they break down inside and randomly/temporarily hold pressure.

[datzenmike]

Maybe not the brakes. What else would resist the engine turning the drive train?

[22350]

4 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Maybe not the brakes. What else would resist the engine turning the drive train?

I am thinking something in the transmission gave up. 

 

Sucks given the fact that I rebuilt it

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

If the brakes are not tight, it has to be something in the trans. Could be the motor getting tight as it gets hot, but you would notice that. There are thrust washers in the trans that could bind. It doesn't sound like shaft bearings (ball bearings). Could also be the slip yoke at the tailhousing. Does it have a slip yoke or a bolt on shaft? Could it be the differential?

 

Back to the brakes - Are you sure you have free-play at the brake master cylinder brake pedal pushrod?

[22350]

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

If the brakes are not tight, it has to be something in the trans. Could be the motor getting tight as it gets hot, but you would notice that. There are thrust washers in the trans that could bind. It doesn't sound like shaft bearings (ball bearings). Could also be the slip yoke at the tailhousing. Does it have a slip yoke or a bolt on shaft? Could it be the differential?

 

Back to the brakes - Are you sure you have free-play at the brake master cylinder brake pedal pushrod?

It still has a slip yoke, the rear end is new. and you can push the truck around with one hand.  Reverse seems to work normally.

 

I have freeplay at the brake pedal.  The push pin is the correct length.  I have already confirmed that.  The parking brake seems to have been the problem.  The slight clutch chatter, on take off, might have been the trans starting to fail.  I guess rebuilding it wasn't the safety move I thought.

 

[datzenmike]

If clutch 'judder' that's the clutch. It should engage smoothly no matter the load on it.

 

Judder...

Contamination on clutch disc (oil?)

One of the torsional springs fell out of the disc.

Disc is worn down to the rivets.

Flywheel and or pressure plate is no longer smooth.

 

also ran...

Engine or transmission mounts worn or loose.

Engine to transmission bolts loose.

Bad rear shocks.

Leaf spring U bolts loose.

 

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

22 hours ago, datzenmike said:

If clutch 'judder' that's the clutch. It should engage smoothly no matter the load on it.

 

Judder...

Contamination on clutch disc (oil?)

One of the torsional springs fell out of the disc.

Disc is worn down to the rivets.

Flywheel and or pressure plate is no longer smooth.

 

also ran...

Engine or transmission mounts worn or loose.

Engine to transmission bolts loose.

Bad rear shocks.

Leaf spring U bolts loose.

 

 

 

Yes, but he does have the "dragging" issue. A binding trans can get worse as it heats and loosen up when it cools. It will eventually fail. If it is the trans...

[22350]

7 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Yes, but he does have the "dragging" issue. A binding trans can get worse as it heats and loosen up when it cools. It will eventually fail. If it is the trans...

We will know soon.  Transmission coming out again....

[datzenmike]

When starting off anything could be dragging. (what ever this means) The front brakes might be holding the vehicle back and the loosen up when moving.

 

Can't see the brakes working fine when stopped but over night one or more, front or rear, manage to tighten themselves.

 

Is the 'dragging' based on a juddery clutch engagement?

[22350]

37 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

When starting off anything could be dragging. (what ever this means) The front brakes might be holding the vehicle back and the loosen up when moving.

 

Can't see the brakes working fine when stopped but over night one or more, front or rear, manage to tighten themselves.

 

Is the 'dragging' based on a juddery clutch engagement?

You can push the truck in nutral.  nothing is dragging.  Can't engadge first.... overloads the clutch and stalls