Leaking radiator fluid from the head

[Rusty Dawg]

Howdy,

 

I am getting closer and closer to just pulling this damn engine out and starting fresh.  I had repaired the head on this J13 and installed a new head gasket and now this.  The joys of owning old trucks🤪

[d.p]

Is there a question or just a vent? I’m fine with either because these fucking things will test your patience.  

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

If you're not planning on driving it a ton, try some alumaseal. It is a metal based cooling system sealer that finds the leak and stuffs it full of metal dust, which then forms a dam. It may be that the head or block surface has a small low spot around one of the water jackets.

 

For that matter, are the head bolt holes blind or wet? If they are wet holes, the bolts require sealant on the threads.

 

Re-torque of the cylinder head may also help stop the leak.

 

I did a quick in-frame rebuild of the engine in my Farmall Cub tractor, and the same thing happened, but a couple of re-torques later, the leak sealed itself up.

 

Did you use copper coat on the head gasket? On older low-tech engines like this, I always spray the head gaskets with copper coat.

[Rusty Dawg]

8 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

If you're not planning on driving it a ton, try some alumaseal. It is a metal based cooling system sealer that finds the leak and stuffs it full of metal dust, which then forms a dam. It may be that the head or block surface has a small low spot around one of the water jackets.

 

For that matter, are the head bolt holes blind or wet? If they are wet holes, the bolts require sealant on the threads.

 

Re-torque of the cylinder head may also help stop the leak.

 

I did a quick in-frame rebuild of the engine in my Farmall Cub tractor, and the same thing happened, but a couple of re-torques later, the leak sealed itself up.

 

Did you use copper coat on the head gasket? On older low-tech engines like this, I always spray the head gaskets with copper coat.

I basically drive it a couple times a month on weekends, so not a ton.  I will check on the bolts to see if they are wet and add sealant if needed.  I was thinking of re-torquing, but didn't know if it would eventually leak again.  As for using a copper coat, I had no idea I should use any, so I did not😒

[Rusty Dawg]

Hi Matt,

 

Sorry the photo is sideways, but I have this in my shop now.  Would this work or is AlumaSeal work differently?  Not sure why I have the bottle, but the tablets are for a 1934 Chevy radiator that once I get running will be used to repair a leaky radiator.  If AlumaSeal is the way to go, is there a certain one you recommend for my specific issue?

[datzenmike]

Yes.  Did you us a specific bolt pattern when tightening? If not, lower the coolant level, loosen all the head bolts and then tighten them in the proper order.

 

If gasket is new and a proper tightening sequence was used, try re-torque when engine is dead cold. Just like the Z24, loosen only one head bolt and tighten to spec. Only when it is tight move to the next one. Any order you like.

 

 

Where is the nearest heater or radiator hose? Rev it up. See any leak spraying onto the engine? The engine tilts up at the front water will run down hill.

 

If it's the head gasket .... fix the head gasket. Wouldn't take a morning and $30. It's not like an OHC that need the timing chain tensioner blocked. Check the head for flatness. Radiator sealant isn't going to fix a warped head.

 

I've used those stop leak products before and they plug up the heater core. Tell the truth I have never had any of them work. Always ended up taking the rad out and doing it right and having to clean up the god damn mess they made of the cooling system. I bet if you read the fine print it will say 'only intended to be used to get you to a proper repair shop' same as a tire plug kit.

[Rusty Dawg]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

Yes.  Did you us a specific bolt pattern when tightening? If not, lower the coolant level, loosen all the head bolts and then tighten them in the proper order.

 

If gasket is new and a proper tightening sequence was used, try re-torque when engine is dead cold. Just like the Z24, loosen only one head bolt and tighten to spec. Only when it is tight move to the next one. Any order you like.

 

 

Where is the nearest heater or radiator hose? Rev it up. See any leak spraying onto the engine? The engine tilts up at the front water will run down hill.

 

If it's the head gasket .... fix the head gasket. Wouldn't take a morning and $30. It's not like an OHC that need the timing chain tensioner blocked. Check the head for flatness. Radiator sealant isn't going to fix a warped head.

 

I've used those stop leak products before and they plug up the heater core. Tell the truth I have never had any of them work. Always ended up taking the rad out and doing it right and having to clean up the god damn mess they made of the cooling system. I bet if you read the fine print it will say 'only intended to be used to get you to a proper repair shop' same as a tire plug kit.

I followed the specified pattern when I installed the rebuilt/resurfaced head with new gasket.  Heater hose is a ways away, plus I can see fluid seeping under the head from the first area where it was leaking towards the back of the engine where it was also leaking.  

 

So I don't need to loosen all the bolts and re-torque using the tightening pattern?  I can go one by one with a cold engine in no specific sequence? 

 

If it's the head gasket, I will not be replacing it with the same one that's for sure.  I just installed it a year ago.

[datzenmike]

If you tightened them in the proper sequence then you can re-torque them one by one any order.

 

If you did not do the tightening in the proper order then now's the time to completely loosen them all and torque it properly. I don't know the order but probably from the middle out to the ends...

 

R.A.D

9...10

5.....6

1.....2

3....4

7.....8....... be sure to lower the coolant level lower than the head at least.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

The Alumaseal looks very similar to the tablets you have. So I might give that a shot. The reason I am urging you to try the stop leak is because I know you, just like me, have many vintage vehicles that you need to keep running, and it may not be really high on your priority list to have them all 100%.

 

For what it's worth, the stop leak liquid is not something I would use. Yes, that stuff will clog up heater cores. The grainy stuff does not clog up cores. I have been using alumaseal for decades and can attest to its efficacy while never having it clog up a core or cause more problems than already exist. Is it a bandaid? Yes, most definitely. But if the engine in question is just a toy and not high on your priority list, give it a try.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Also, I didn't say "warped" head. I said low spots around the water jackets caused by years of corrosion. You know, that grey or black shadow that doesn't come off with sanding the surface.

[Rusty Dawg]

9 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

The Alumaseal looks very similar to the tablets you have. So I might give that a shot. The reason I am urging you to try the stop leak is because I know you, just like me, have many vintage vehicles that you need to keep running, and it may not be really high on your priority list to have them all 100%.

 

For what it's worth, the stop leak liquid is not something I would use. Yes, that stuff will clog up heater cores. The grainy stuff does not clog up cores. I have been using alumaseal for decades and can attest to its efficacy while never having it clog up a core or cause more problems than already exist. Is it a bandaid? Yes, most definitely. But if the engine in question is just a toy and not high on your priority list, give it a try.

Well I don't have my heater core connected, so I plan to give it a shot.  I am in the process of picking out another engine block, parts and such to do a rebuild eventually.  I even have a line on another 60 PLG222 that has a J15 in it.  Thanks for the advise to all.

[Rusty Dawg]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:48 PM, datzenmike said:

Yes.  Did you us a specific bolt pattern when tightening? If not, lower the coolant level, loosen all the head bolts and then tighten them in the proper order.

 

If gasket is new and a proper tightening sequence was used, try re-torque when engine is dead cold. Just like the Z24, loosen only one head bolt and tighten to spec. Only when it is tight move to the next one. Any order you like.

 

 

Where is the nearest heater or radiator hose? Rev it up. See any leak spraying onto the engine? The engine tilts up at the front water will run down hill.

 

If it's the head gasket .... fix the head gasket. Wouldn't take a morning and $30. It's not like an OHC that need the timing chain tensioner blocked. Check the head for flatness. Radiator sealant isn't going to fix a warped head.

 

I've used those stop leak products before and they plug up the heater core. Tell the truth I have never had any of them work. Always ended up taking the rad out and doing it right and having to clean up the god damn mess they made of the cooling system. I bet if you read the fine print it will say 'only intended to be used to get you to a proper repair shop' same as a tire plug kit.

I was thinking about this a bit today on a long walk, why do I have to loosen up the head bolts and torque back to spec?  Would simply re-torquing them to spec work the same without loosing them first?  I'm sure there's a reason and I would like to learn why.

 

Thanks,

Roman

[datzenmike]

Sometimes metals will grip tightly together over time, a form of adhesion between sliding surfaces, I don't know the term for this, but when you try to loosen them they take more effort than the original tightening torque. Best to loosen it's grip first, than torque.

 

There is also the possibility that it may be over tightened and just applying the correct torque will leave the impression that it is tight enough.

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yes, loosen them to get the correct torque.

[Rusty Dawg]

For a hot minute I thought re-torquing did the trick.  It's not leaking nearly as bad as last weekend, but I think I still see a small amount of water sitting between the block and head gasket.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Do it again.

[Rusty Dawg]

Just did and if this doesn't work then it's time to try a sealant I believe.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

If I were a betting man, I would guess it will seal up with more heat cycles. Leave the radiator cap off while running it in the meantime so the building pressure doesn't make it worse.

 

Note - using the alumaseal requires pressure, so if you're adding those tablets, disregard what I said about leaving the cap off.

[Rusty Dawg]

11 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

If I were a betting man, I would guess it will seal up with more heat cycles. Leave the radiator cap off while running it in the meantime so the building pressure doesn't make it worse.

 

Note - using the alumaseal requires pressure, so if you're adding those tablets, disregard what I said about leaving the cap off.

When you say heat cycles, I would assume you mean to just run it parked until the radiator fluid wants to spill over and then let it cool down.  Repeat a few times?

[datzenmike]

Drive it normally but if you do keep an eye on the temperature gauge and carry some water. A small leak like that shouldn't suddenly get worse. If not driving it then just warm it up every day or twice a day will full cool off in between.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yep, either way. If you decide to try without the cap on, then obviously you can't really drive it without a cap.

 

My first 510 was overheating one day, so I decided to remove the cap and drive back roads home from Berkeley to Walnut Creek. Coming around a corner (one of the best turns on that road), the radiator spilled over and I spun out because of the glycol on the road. My fiberglass front fender hooked the utility bumper of a farm truck coming the opposite direction and tore completely off. I pulled over and the farmer came and threw the remaining pieces of the fender towards me and said something like - here's the rest of your car.

 

So yeah, leave the cap on while driving.