L20B crank trigger ignition

[CameronT]

I know there is some older posts regarding this topic, but no one has followed through with the report on whether or not it worked and what parts were used in the process.

Any help would be appreciated...

[datzenmike]

Hey I saw on the trigger ignition forum for l20b and was wondering what you think would be the best option for the kit, and if I am having issues with timing on the dizzy now will it clear that all up?

What problem? Easy to fix or just find another distributor. Best would be a '78-80 EI (electronic ignition) distributor and get rid of your points..

[shacks510]

Electromotive

[Jester]

Not trying to be a dick, but, here is a search specific to Ratsun on Ford EDIS ignitions. I'm sure you can find someone in all these threads.

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:ratsun.net+edis+ignition

 

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=EDIS

[CameronT]

My dizzy refuses to consistently fire cylinder number 1. I have installed three different dizzies and replaced the cap, rotor, and wires, confirming all worked. I currently have a 1980 dizzy. I just replaced the oil pump and got it to fire long enough to drive it around for awhile, then it started not firing again. The only thing I can think to do next is check the gear that's on the crank for slop. This engine has worked flawlessly for approximately 30,00 miles since the rebuild. It's not a valve issue, or engine issue, the dizzy simply isn't sending the spark down the wire, while oil pressure is fine.

I figured a crank trigger ignition would get me over this situation and back on the road. The plates expire next month so I could use the info soon.

Yes Jester, I have read those blogs and if you'll notice there isn't any parts listed, or any follow up on whether it actually worked on a L20 motor.

[CameronT]

Oops, that was 30,000 miles.

Also; the gear on the rod between the dizzy and the oil pump looks perfect, there aren't any signs of chipping or wear whatsoever.

This has been a long battle, I have become frustrated several times and just let it sit before going back at it...

After confirming several times that all the parts above the dizzy were fine (cap, rotor, wires, plugs, ground wires, hot wires, coil) I have since focused my attention to the rod, oil pump, and next would be the gear on the crank itself as I have already mentioned.

When I saw the threads on the crank trigger ignition I thought this would be easier then pulling the whole front of my motor off in search of something else.

[datzenmike]

You don't mention replacing the most obvious cause of a misfire. The spark plug. If you did replace it did you inspect it as this is the only witness of what is going on inside the combustion chamber. Was it oily wet and black? Dry and sooty black? Was the porcelain insulator bright clean white?

 

 

Assuming that plug, wire, cap, rotor and one of those three distributors probably is supplying a good strong spark what other thing could cause the Number one cylinder to not fire correctly??? (I ignore the coil and electrical wiring as the other 3 cylinders seem ok, and I doubt the coil knows when number one is firing)

 

Well poor compression for one. Low compression causes...

 

Tight valve clearance or bent valve stem not allowing a valve to close fully and compression pushed out of cylinder.

Burnt or cracked valve face not sealing the compression in.

Worn valve or valve seat not sealing.

Broken piston lands.

Blown head gasket.

 

 

Lean mixture...

Could be an intake gasket failure somewhere around the number one intake port but not shared with other cylinders.

[CameronT]

This kind of comment is what most people are suggesting, and it would be great if I actually had spark through the wire, but I don't. That's why I have focused my attention elsewhere, and trust me this has had me scratching my head so much I'm now going bald ! Lol...

[datzenmike]

This isn't making any sense. According to you, you've replaced everything at least once. How do you know there is no spark??? Just how are you testing for spark???

 

This is fixable.

[CameronT]

Timing light, wires 2, 3, and 4 work flawlessly but wire number 1 doesn't. Pretty difficult to time, not to mention it doesn't run right on 3 cylinders.

 

Also my compression is tits sitting 150 in 1 155 in 2 and 3 and 160 in 4, that's what people don't realize and I have told them I did compression test first and if its within 10 of each other its fine, valves are 30k old along with the entire head and block with brand new internals along with those all, I did a rebuild on it basically, and its been easy sailing and now this happens?

 

no one can give me a solid answer changing dizzies helps for a few days and bam starts number 1 spark miss again, not a motor misfire.

 

does this help you now?

[datzenmike]

If three cylinders fire, then the distributor and coil are obviously fine and working. This leaves the distributor cap, #1 plug wire and spark plug.

 

Pull the #1 plug wire off the spark plug, stick another plug in the end and lay on a grounded surface. Start it up or use starter to turn engine over. Got spark???

 

No? swap #1 wire with #2 and try again.

 

No? pull the distributor cap off and look. You have this one?

 

 

... or this one?

 

[CameronT]

I'm not getting spark to the plug or even through the wire on #1, well let me rephrase that, it will occasionally send a spark. We have gone through three sets of caps and rotors, two sets of wires and even tried some wires from a V8 I had sitting around, two sets of plugs. We are way beyond those items...

We had dizzy number 1 you showed and tried two of those, we now have dizzy #2 you showed and are still not getting consistent spark until we replaced the oil pump. That worked long enough to get it timed, two short trips around the neighborhood, and then about thirty miles on and off the freeway. Then it started running like crap and backfiring because of the un-burnt gases coming from cylinder 1, it was a nice light show !

[datzenmike]

But are you actually looking at the spark or going by the timing light not flashing?

[CameronT]

It's a headscratcher like I said. That's why I'm thinking the gear that's on the crank may need to be looked into, because after changing the oil pump it worked fine. WAIT... Maybe the guides that the rod sit in are worn out enough to keep the rotor from hitting the proper point on the dizzy cap ?

[CameronT]

I understand what you're saying and the answer is "not all the time". We have pulled it and checked it before, and we have put the light on the other wires to make sure that the light was actually working. We actually had thought there was a failure in the light at first, then realized it wasn't the light.

[CameronT]

All that doesn't explain why after changing the oil pump fixed it temporarily ?

[CameronT]

After exhausting all other ideas is why I turned my search deeper and bought the oil pump to begin with. It would seem to me that something down there is just loose enough that the rod slips just enough to miss the point where it needs to actually ignite number one from the rotor to the dizzy cap.

 

That's why I thought it would be a good idea to try the crank trigger ignition and scrap this system as it is failing anyway.

 

Though if I do that and never find out why it's doing what it's doing may very well drive me crazy too !!!!

[datzenmike]

The timing light may work on the other three but not in that position. Just saying, seeing is believing, and the timing light should be eliminated as a cause of added confusion.

 

 

 

 

The spindle is what turns the distributor not the oil pump. Although the oil pump supports the spindle up in place. What thickness is your oil pump gasket? Maybe the top of the spindle is damaged. This is what you should see at TDC

 

 

 

Can you pull up and down on it???

[CameronT]

I have not tried pulling up and down but the gasket is what was supplied with the pump and appeared to be the same as the old one. We have tried back and forth from the rotor which has a little movement is normal. I cannot tell you exactly where the alignment of the rod is as compared to your pic, but we have dialed it in to TDC multiple times and are getting quite good at it. when we do TDC we turn the motor til the piston is at the top of its stroke, than we go about doing the dizzy, we made a mark on the side of the dizzy where the center of number 1 will send the firing signal to the compression stoke, than drop the oil pump and we turn the rod until it lines up with the mark and bolt it all back up and begin timing the motor to 12degrees where it likes to run the best. and tune the carb to perfect and retime and so on until it runs primo.

 

I understand the oil pump runs off the same rod but was trying to eliminate the possibility that the lack of spark was from slop down there and causing it to miss it's mark on the dizzy cap. It did work temporarily after doing so, wouldn't this tell me that it is indeed from slop or something that has become loose ?

 

The timing light is a quick reference to determine if a signal is even going down the wire, without it there are still many variables to consider aren't there ?

[datzenmike]

The stock oil pump gasket is paper thin. Thicker would lower the oil pump and lower the spindle that drives it, moving it down away from the distributor.

 

The problem with the timing light is... relying on it to tell you if there is spark. Just saying another layer of complexity added.

 

 

Does the spindle lift up and down after removing the dizzy?

[CameronT]

We had issues with the spark long before we replaced the oil pump, after replacing the oil pump we actually had spark for a short time. I don't think the gasket is the issue but it was very close to the same thickness, hard to tell after they get squished.

 

Timing light; I understand you can check for spark with the plug out, connected and grounded. However, if there isn't any spark you still have to determine if it's the grounding that's bad, the plug itself, or the wire. I don't know of ANY faster way to determine if the spark is actually coming down the wire then using either a timing light or a inline ignition spark testing tool.

 

Regarding rod movement up and down I can't say until I get home and check it. I then turn to your question about the thickness of the gasket again and reiterate that we had spark for a short time after the oil pump was installed. Now we are back to the beginning again...

 

Since replacing the oil pump fixed the issue temporarily I tend to think it's from slop or movement from the rod. Which is why I was interested in the crank trigger ignition in the first place.

 

Is there a place to purchase a new rod, because I haven't found any ?

[datzenmike]

The gasket is incredibly thin, almost like wax paper. You would think that if the spindle that drives everything is sloppy, loose or not sitting high enough why just number 1 plug.

 

 

We had issues with the spark long before we replaced the oil pump, after replacing the oil pump we actually had spark for a short time. I don't think the gasket is the issue but it was very close to the same thickness, hard to tell after they get squished.

 

Timing light; I understand you can check for spark with the plug out, connected and grounded. However, if there isn't any spark you still have to determine if it's the grounding that's bad, the plug itself, or the wire. I don't know of ANY faster way to determine if the spark is actually coming down the wire then using either a timing light or a inline ignition spark testing tool.

 

 

Grounding the plug is simple enough, I already suggested swapping #1 and #2 wires to eliminate that and how hard is it to try a different plug. Nothing adds up, non of the easy fixes seems to do anything and any assumption needs to be eliminated. If there is spark then this needs to be re-thunk. 

[Doctor510]

"Rods" almost never are bad, the locator "bushing" in the front cover gets wallowed out or the oil pump itself will lock up.  If it is a Melling pump that's cast iron, get a good aluminum one.

 

The bushing that the dist shaft spins in can get oval and cause symptoms like yours.  Bushings are available thru Rock Auto. I have been  rebuilding and re-curving Datsun distributors for 15 or so years and have seen more than my share of troubled units.  I'm in AZ, msg me if needed.

[datzenmike]

All electrical plug/wire/rotor/cap and distributors have been swapped, at least once. Included in this is the oil pump. This would leave the drive spindle. Now how the hell a turning spindle, can in turn spin a distributor past the #1 position and not have it fire is beyond me. Everything points to the plug firing and this is why I question the timing gun being used.

[CameronT]

Trust me Datzenmike, I have been scratching my head in wonder for awhile now and getting nowhere. This is why I have turned my attention to what's below the dizzy. I think Doctor510 may have something there with the bushings getting out of round, I didn't replace those and the truck has approximately 290,000 miles on it short of the rebuild and other work I did about 30,000 miles ago.