Thinking about building a 410/411 goon...still brainstorming but am I being too ambitious...?

[FiveSeventyZee]

So my post got kinda long, made the less important stuff gray font so if you want the condensed version just ignore the gray stuff.

 

 

At this point I want to say this is not the same as a "hai guyz, just got a Datsun for my 16th birthday and I'm gonna V8 swap it!" thread...I am and have been considering the physical and financial difficulties to this idea and I am not in any way underestimating the scale of the project I'm talking about attempting here. I hope this isnt taken as arrogance, but I am a fairly smart guy, I've done fabrication before, I swapped the L18 out of my 510 in favor of a KA, I'm in classes aimed at furnishing technicians (not to become a mechanic, because I just like knowing how cars work). The point is, while this is no walk in the park, and I am no master fabricator (not even close) but I'm not in way over my head, in fact I'm trying to do my research now for a build I won't get to for a couple years for the very purpose of making sure I don't get into anything over my head. Also please don't tell me there's no point and I should just buy a big american truck. I know this doesnt make sense...its not about making sense, its about making a badass datsun that I can be proud of. I really hope you all understand that, anyone thats passionate about building things should get it.

 

 

Carrying on...as the title says I'm looking into a 410/411 goon (as my sig shows, i'm considering the 810 goon as well) basically I've gone insane and I'm trying to dream up a 410/411 tow goon....

 

which is where I'm not sure if I'm being way too ambitious lol. The way I see it there are a few things that make the 411 unfit to tow;

-Suspension for a 2000lb car isn't meant to handle an extra 2000-3000lbs behind it (well technically less due to toungue wieght vs trailer weight but the point is susp isnt heavy duty enough)

-J13, J15 and R16's aren't exactly the most powerful motors in the world (even for pulling something light like a datsun)

-the brakes will require upgrading to be able to stop both cars

-it just plain doesnt weigh a lot...

 

 

I figure I can make the suspension suitable for towing duty by bagging it, at least the back if not all around. With bags I can up the pressure on the rear to tow and drop it back down for DD'ing. As for powerplant I'm undecided so far but I'm looking into diesel/turbodiesel swaps, after doing the KA swap in junior I'm not too worried about engine swaps (don't read this as overconfidence, I know its not gonna be easy since there arent any 410 or 411 diesels yet that I know of...there's usually a reason for swaps that haven't been done yet. I'm just confident that in the event I can't get it to work out I can salvage the project with a KA or L swap)

 

The remaining 2 issues are the ones that concern me/I don't know how to handle yet, I'm wondering what sort of braking options are available for putting bigger stuff on that can handle prolonged abuse without getting heat soaked. Mainly for the front. as for the back I was thinking a 200sx H190 with discs. anyone know the trac widths on the 200sx vs 411? I figure if they arent the same the 200sx should be wider which can always be shortened.

 

possibly even a wilwood setup? this is still just an "idea phase" build so money really isnt a concern since I don't even have a shell yet I have no clue what my budget for this build might look like.

 

The weight issue is kind of what concerns me the most. when the car being towed hits a bump or rut in the road and gets pulled to one side it yanks on the tow hitch which creates a pendulum-effect sorta deal. basically it turns the towing vehicle, more technically its dragging it side to side resulting in constant steering adjustments just to keep the car in a line. Now I talked to Wayno about towing with 720's (he does this pretty often it seems) he said the 720 suffered from being pulled like this (its still a pretty light vehicle but still more than 150% of the weight of the 411...which is concerning for my outlook...) until he tried it with duallies. he said the duallies kept it planted in a strait line more. well this obviously means the dragging effect can be reduced without adding weight to the tow car by adding traction (to the back wheels). I was thinking about having a truck axle with duallies as a spare to swap in for towing duties. The issue with this is it can't necessarily be done on the side of the road (read:on the way to Canby) in the event that the Z brakes down and I need to tow. Ideally I would have something I could run all the time or would be a simple roadside adjustment. I was thinking about running a pair of 15x10 or 15x11's in the back with some wide and sticky 295's with the bags all the way up for towing that gives me so much more tire patch I might as well have duallies. That would keep the 4x4.5 bolt pattern and I could throw the wide tires in the back for trips to shows and what not.

 

Any input on the brakes and/or avoiding being pulled by the trailer is greatly appreciated.

 

I would run a lightweight aluminum trailer thats barebones, just big enough to tow my Z, maybe big enough for a 620/720 but its main towing duty would be my Z. With a light enough trailer I shouldnt exceed 3000lbs total. not sure how much of that load would be on the tongue and thus factored into the cars payload (the suspension of the car only "feels" the portion of the load thats on the tongnue, the trailer's wheels carry much of the weight)

 

sooooo if you've made it this far (thanks if you did read my novel)...does this sound possible or am I gonna end up like Top Gear? (ambitious....but rubbish)

[MikeRL411]

The main problem that I can see against making a tow out of a 410 or 411 is the unibody. You might have to add C beams or square sections "stretchers" between the rear suspension subframe attach points and the front subframe attach points in order to take the strain of tow loads off the unibody structure. The existing "U" section reinforcements are more than adequate for the designed 4 door sedan use but I'm not sure how much margin they have. Sort of like beefing up a sedan structure to make a stretch limo. The alternative would be to use a rear axle bolt on trailer hitch. The 410 and 411 rear axle is strong but I'm not sure I would trust that its welded joints would be strong enough to withstand several years of braking with the weight of a trailer and a Z car pushing on it.

 

Good luck if you actually go ahead with this!

[FiveSeventyZee]

You might have to add C beams or square sections "stretchers" between the rear suspension subframe attach points and the front subframe attach points in order to take the strain of tow loads off the unibody structure.

Definitely didnt think of this, thanks, this is going on the list of necessary mods.

 

The alternative would be to use a rear axle bolt on trailer hitch.

what is this? a hitch that mounts to the axle?

 

The 410 and 411 rear axle is strong but I'm not sure I would trust that its welded joints would be strong enough to withstand several years of braking with the weight of a trailer and a Z car pushing on it

Well I wouldn't be towing all the time. It would end up being subjected to a total of maye 20-30 hrs of towing a year. the rest of the time would be regular dailying. So maybe it wouldnt be too bad?

 

Good luck if you actually go ahead with this!

haha yeah thanks, I got a minute till I can start actually moving on this so I'm trying to plan out as much as I can now. Before I do anything (including buy a 411) I have to get Harold road legal (or decide to put that project off for 3-4 years while i build another datsun....again) and I'm gonna have to sell Jr....can't afford 3 cars, unless my financial situation changes by the time I move on this, it could happen

 

 

On a side note, I was thinking about adding a rollcage to help weigh the car down a bit (combat the front end wandering) but now I'm thinking it may be a good idea more for support to the unibody purposes. I should be able to distribute the load that way

[DaBlist]

I love 4 series goons but there is a good reason you don't see cars this light and narrow being used to tow car trailers. But if you really have to and don't mind destroying the car in most eyes, channeling it over a cut down truck frame and converting it to a dually (emphasize destroying the car) or something that gives it a stable track width could work.

[FiveSeventyZee]

its not destroyed if it drives...I'm not going to do anything that can't be undone unless I have a back up plan to keep the project alive. I promise you I'm not gonna hack up a car, give up and scrap it. thats not my style, hence the planning/researching now rather than after cutting into a 411 lol.

 

and the reason it hasnt been done is because there are easier/cheaper ways to tow a car. yes the car is not suited to towing well but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Keep in mind if "there's a reason it hasn't been done" meant we don't try something technology would not exist. There was a first SR20 swap and a first KA swap...not that 411 tow goons are gonna be the next SR dime...lol. Same goes for airplanes/the write bros story, cell phones, computers....anything (hence I said technology wouldn't exist, not just dattos) I guess the point I'm getting at is that while I understand it's a massive undertaking but it would result in one BADASS car if it works out and the only way I can guarantee it WONT work is to not try....catch my drift?

 

That said, what about puting it over a truck frame would be better than just reinforcing the frame it has and putting super wide rear wheels on it? I understand the truck frames rigidity advantage, I'm not worried about that as I can add supports under the car like Mike mentioned and/or put in a roll cage to stiffen the chassis. The wide rear tires should do the job of the duallies as far as widening the rear track width and enlarging the contact patch.

 

Maybe a full set of wide tires, front and back, that should stop the front from wandering too much. and if I bag the front as well I don't have to worry about fitment as long as I get low offset on the "tow" set of wheels.

 

As stated this thing isnt gonna be a tow truck all the time, I'm not going around charging people for tows. The purpose of this car would be daily driving 99% of the time and on a handful of occasions each year (Canby and JCCS) it's job will be to be filled up with tools and spares to follow my Z with. It will only tow if the Z breaks down.

[MikeRL411]

The point is that the 411 doesn't have a frame! It's a unit body vehicle. That, plus it was designed by Pininfarina! You should know that the Italian design criteria is "Form over function", not the "Real American" not to say Mercedes motto of function dictates form. Point of clarification, Pininfarina pulled the rear quarter panel roof line down for appearance solely. Unfortiunately they "forgot" to provide a drain hole in the rear quarter section of the rain gutter [another gripe to be discussed later] so rain water accumulates and rusts the spot welds holding the roof down to the body. Did I forget to mention that Peninfarina put the rain gutter on the body stamping and spot welded the roof inside the rain gutter where it was sure to rust out the spot welds? "They" compensated with "non shrink non cracking" body putty which, guess what, shrinks and cracks after 30 plus years. Furthermore, Pininfarina put no drain holes [even Chevrolet did this] in the low spot, so rain accumulates and really does infiltrate the "non shrink, non crack' body sealant and immediately starts to rust the spot welds holding the roof to the body. Ask me how I know, having had to repair mine!

[FiveSeventyZee]

those are good issues to know about. And yeah I know its a unibody, I was thinking of the unibody when I said frame. Probably because I've never really done any work on a car that has a separate body and frame so to me unibody and frame meant the same thing. But what I meant to say is that I don't see why I shouldnt be able to strengthen the unibody to be as strong/rigid as say a 620 or 521, both of which are over 6 inches too long in the wheelbase... Plus I'd rather strengthen the unibody then cut it up and lay it over a truck frame.

 

But I did forget the 411 was a Pininfarina design that is a bit of a hiccup, but I don't think a weak unibody is an insurmountable issue to this project. I'll obviously have to do a lot of research on strengthening the unibody and account for the distribution of the trailer's load...I know trusses will be part of the answer, just gotta figure out the proper design for strength/weight distribution. But I have a while to figure the best way of doing that.

 

Anyone got good pics of the underside of a 4 series wagon? tall order I know but it would definitely help me figure out what the design of the unibody is.

 

 

edit: It might be a good idea to tie the hitch mount into the added unibody support. Just writing that down so I don't forget. I should start a journal/notebook if I'm gonna actually get anywhere...

 

 

edit: upon second thought shortening a truck frame might not be a horrid idea. good way to save a goon that's got rusted out floors. slash a rusty car in general that wont go back to driving as a unibody

[erichwaslike]

as most know im a 411 enthusiest..... this statement doesnt sit well with me

 

its not destroyed if it drives...

 

heres a few cars i would consider to be destroyed by the owner wanting something special... they prolly all drive too

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i think ive proven my point. you will have to do so much to this thing to make it tow right that it really wouldnt be a 411 and prolly wouldnt look much like one after its done. there was a guy that asked about sectioning a 411 and making it 6 inches wider dfown the middle to make a "wide body" car.... anothet waste of a car..... just go buy an 810 wagon

[DaBlist]

Just don't want to see this happen to you or your rig. I see it three or four times a year around here.

If you are towing a heavy load and someone cuts you off just hit them. Trying to avoid it with a heavy load behind you isn't worth it. Best wishes with your project.

[FiveSeventyZee]

wasn't planning on making any changes to the body. I won't be driving through the English Channel (that build was a joke...literally, clarkson practically builds anything he can poorly on purpose so the shows funnier) but point well made.

 

 

that said, I've been looking at truck builds to get some info/knowledge about their frames and how people did bags and frame modding. just to get an idea about what works and what doesn't. this first one seems like a decent idea to me

 

 

this is in a Toyota truck but it's really just the idea/style of the suspension, mostly how it's mounted...and if it's sturdy nough to be considered safe for daily use. which for the above setup. I feel it's safe seeing many large trucks with this type of suspension. it doesn't look like something I couldn't find as a kit almost (this yota looks like a kit)

 

another I was looking at was this

 

 

this one looks of questionable strength. but provides A LOT of room between the trut towers. which makes any engine swap easier regardless of what engine I use. what do you guys think about this one? too weak? that is a VG30DE under that plastic. idk how it worked out though

 

edit: forgot to point out that this one is a 620 frame and doesn't have the sub frame on in the pic so it would be stronger. this one came from someone's build thread on here. forget who's... :/

[FiveSeventyZee]

Just don't want to see this happen to you or your rig. I see it three or four times a year around here.

 

 

 

agreed. I don't want that to happen. which is why I'm here. on ratsun. in the safe realm of hypothetically (is that a word?) where I can't hurt a Datsun or myself. I'm here to see what I could do to make sure this doesn't happen.

 

I think a big thing to remember is a z with an aluminum trailer vs a slightly "beefier" than stock 411 is not the same as towing a full sized enclosed trailer behind what looks like no more than a midsized hatchback.

edit: nevermind, that's clearly a truck idk what I was seeing before. but the point is I hopefully won't have the mass to cause that

 

edit: this looks like it could be done using 620 suspension, which if I went 620 suspension I'd probably use 620 hubs meaning 6x139 lugs, which means I could put a truck axle in the back and have the ability to throw on real duallies. It's a pretty compact setup so i probably wouldn't have too much trouble fabbing it into a 4 series

[erichwaslike]

not to sound like a total dick but none of what you just posted has any use for towing. the top one of the yota is a total chaos fab setup that is designed for desert use, super floppy. the frame you showed would be used for agressive street driving seeing that its strut and independent all the way around and the rear setup has no strength for load capacity. the air bag setup was just meant for low adjustablity seing as how theres not even a shock on it.... youre doing your hw but none of that is what you are looking for....

[FiveSeventyZee]

you don't sound like a dick, I didn't explain what I was posting correctly. there are ideas in my head and the English language is inadequate for efficiently transferring ideas from one brain to the next. shit happens. however, I understand that I am running around like a chicken with its head cut off right now. but I'll say it again, this is why I'm here! I'm asking for help. isnt that kind of what the Ratsun community is all about? I'm using my knowledge and past experience to figure out how to do this project...I'm trying to do the research and do this properly, but i feel you're still focusing on the wrong thing...you keep focusing on my one statement "if it drives its not ruined" which I agree with you, if it drive but looks nothing like the original/looks like shit/drives like shit it is ruined. my statement was poorly worded. if you could please put that statement out of your memory we can move on and maybe you could help point me in the right direction and show me a suspension setup that IS good for towing that might be a possibility

 

anyway...I meant the front suspensions and I understand the yota is meant for offloading but shocks and spring rates can be changed. I'm looking at these pics looking for ways to change the front suspension. the goal of this is a figuring out exactly how it'll be bagged. and b. 411 front brake upgrades are non existent and with a suspension change I can design the suspension around the hubs/brakes allowing me to stop both Dattos. the brakes I use are decided by the suspension I use. those pics were looking at methods of mounting suspensions.

 

I won't be putting IRS in this build. thought about it for half a second but I feel the live axle is sturdier for towing. the second one was to point out his shock tower setup as I could use that for the front if its strong enough giving me plenty of space in the engine bay. which should make clearancing things in the engine bay easier later.

 

that said you pointed something out that's new to me. the lack of shocks on the second setup. I know very little about bags....that's probably the newest part of this build for me personally. I've seen bag setups with shocks and without. is running bags without shocks just like running springs without shocks? airbag=spring?

[erichwaslike]

yes it is, and why run bags at all. the fron suspension on a 411 is actually pretty good. also there is a brake upgrade. mklotz makes it, i have one on my car. theres a few ppl runing them. gives bigger disk brakes than the stock ss 411 had and gets rid of the drums the pl411 had.

[FiveSeventyZee]

oh I wasn't sure if he actually finished that project or what. I guess I'll ask him about it. what rotors and pads did he end up using though? wasn't it G20 stuff? cuz I was thinkking I could take this opportunity to overengineer and use brakes that can stop something much larger. I'm also wanting to use 4 piston calipers up front, mostly for the pad surface area, heat is my main concern with the brakes. wilwood makes a high temp 570* boiling point brake fluid, I would use this for sure, but bigger pads dissipate the heat rather than dealing with it. the hi temp fluid is more of a bandaid, the bigger pads is like stitches...

 

As for bags, the idea is that I could have it low for dailying, slammed for shows, and raised up for towing.

 

although I'm not set on bags for the front. the back is getting bagged for sure. the front is going to be height adjustable. either coilovers/springs or bags. just not set on which yet.

[erichwaslike]

you are trying to accomplish too much with one vehicle, a daily show tow rig that isnt a show tow rig you daily. you are trying to build 3 sepporate cars in one at the same tiem but they have 3 differant focuses. i dont think you will be able to make it low enouhg daily driveable enough and tow well nough without sacraficing stuff in all 3 aspects and not just ending up with a ball of mush that wont do any of the 3... sorry to be so harsh but it needs a focus... one focus.

[FoxyRoadster]

If you intend to tow often I'd get a truck meant for towing, having a car lighter then the car you are towing is bad idea.

 

 

You can make power out of an R16, its just a labor of love due to the age of the engine.

[erichwaslike]

not all 411s are r16 tho. and getting the correct parts is hard for a sss. you could get raodster stuff to work, but would you tow with a roadster? not the best torque motor, torqeuy yes but an l, or ka will do better....

[FiveSeventyZee]

point well made. jack of all trades and a master at none. I get it. but at this point i should point out....again....that its not going to tow often....its not actually as widely focused as you think. the idea is a DD that CAN tow...idk how many times i'm gonna say this but can tow and tow truck are different things... as for shows. it isn't going to be a show car in any way. none of my datsuns have been....didnt stop me from entering the dime in JCCS...point is its not a tow/dd/show build...its a dd build that can tow and may occasionally be parked at a car show...

 

DD is primary focus

towing is secondary focus

show is not a focus...just an inevitable biproduct

 

 

again.....it won't tow often.

 

also I don't intend on using the r16, not because its not a good motor. its one of my favorite datsun engines. Its just not what i'm looking for for this build. I have other plans for that. I'm not worried about pulling the trailer/car, I'm worried about stopping and steering/controlling it

[I'm BLUE]

What engine/diesel did you have in mind ?

[ggzilla]

Guys tow wih smaller vehicles ... even with stock engines and brakes. You know the safety issues, it is your choice.

[FiveSeventyZee]

well I know the safety issues, and I'm trying to see what can be done to address them.

 

engine, I wasn't getting exotic, thinkin VW 1.9 tdi. there are companies that make adapters to use them with RWD transmissions. They are reliable engines, parts are pretty readily available, they make decent power, good torque, and have potential for pretty decent output in both departments.

[ggzilla]

I doubt anyone here will think you can address the issues witout total reconstruction eg putting 411 on a truck frame

 

If you ask your insurance Co., they will say it requires a tow car that weighs As much as the ~3000 lbs of the 720.

[FiveSeventyZee]

is the 720 like right on the limit of being heavy enough? is it right at 3000lbs?

 

because I'm not intending on towing a 720

[ggzilla]

Ah, earlier you mentioned a trailer large enough for a 720.

 

You could certainly two-bar a Z with a stock 411 -they are the same weight. As long as there are no major grades. But trailers are considerable weight