KA swap-flip x-member or rear sump pan?

[Duke]

So the end of school is getting near and that means that I'm going to be reunited with my wounded 510 am going to be bringing her back to life...with a KA. I've been contemplating the swap for a while and going over how and what I'm going to be doing. I have most things decided but the main consideration that I am mulling over is if I should flip the x-member or make a rear sump pan. I've come up with a little list of the pro's and cons of each.

 

Rear Sump Pan:

Pro's-Don't have oil pan hanging out in front ready to get ripped open on a bump (which is a definite concern seeing how low my car is).

-Its a good chance to make a nice hammerhead style gated pan.

-It doesn't require a custom sway bar.

-Don't have to cut up the x-member.

 

Con's-Making a custom oil pan is a bit more time consuming than flipping the x-member.

-Must move the dipstick.

-The oil pickup tube becomes rather long.

-A rack and pinion conversion wouldn't be quite as easy in the future.

 

Flipped X-member:

Pro's-Less time consuming, and possibly easier fabrication.

-A flipped x-member makes a really nice place to mount a rack and pinion in the future.

-Don't have to mess with the oiling system of the engine.

-Makes the future possibility of a SR20DE much easier.

 

Con's-Oil pan hanging down low exposed with a huge "crunch me" sign on it.

-Requires a custom sway bar.

-Must cut up the x-member.

 

So thats the list that I have been able to think of. I would love it if anybody who has done the swap to chime in with their experiences with it.

[compression]

I have done both. And after doing them I can say without hesitation...

Flip the front crossmember!

It is really easy to do. I made a quick fixture using some scrap metal, then I cut the center out using my abrasive chop saw, put the pieces in the fixture (with the center flipped, obviously) and welded it back together. Done.

This took me about 2 hours.

 

Custom swaybars are available all over the place for purchase.

 

After doing it this way, you can fit any SR/KA/CA engine you want in there.

 

One of the main problems I had with modifying the oil pan (this was on a KA24DE), is that the flange warped and I could never get it to seal to the block properly. It was a long time ago and I was just learning to weld and I did it with a wire feed welder, that was a huge mistake, it leaked from the welds too. It was just a constant headache.

[DISLEXICDIME]

I have done both. And after doing them I can say without hesitation...

Flip the front crossmember!

It is really easy to do. I made a quick fixture using some scrap metal, then I cut the center out using my abrasive chop saw, put the pieces in the fixture (with the center flipped, obviously) and welded it back together. Done.

This took me about 2 hours.

 

Custom swaybars are available all over the place for purchase.

 

After doing it this way, you can fit any SR/KA/CA engine you want in there.

 

One of the main problems I had with modifying the oil pan (this was on a KA24DE), is that the flange warped and I could never get it to seal to the block properly. It was a long time ago and I was just learning to weld and I did it with a wire feed welder, that was a huge mistake, it leaked from the welds too. It was just a constant headache.

 

 

why didn't you just grind off the welds on the pins flip the cross member around and re weld the pins back in?

[Duke]

I'm confident with my sheet metal fab skills, so I'm not afraid of the pan fab issues. For me, the ease of the swap is not really my main concern, I'm more looking to have the best outcome.

 

Honestly, my main concern is crunching the pan on something. I've seen this happen on a few front sumped 510's and with how low my car is and that I am planning on getting some 13's with race tires I could see this happening.

[DISLEXICDIME]

skid plate!

[fiveNdime]

If your interested I can make a crossmember using your stock one so that the motor will bolt up just fine, but I don't flip it. I notch it and reinforce the back. I have done a couple of them for different people. They were also tested for reliability and strength. What I do also allows you to revert back to an L motor with little mods. It allows for the KA or SR. Your sump will sit level with the crossmember, not any lower.

[DISLEXICDIME]

If your interested I can make a crossmember using your stock one so that the motor will bolt up just fine, but I don't flip it. I notch it and reinforce the back. I have done a couple of them for different people. They were also tested for reliability and strength. What I do also allows you to revert back to an L motor with little mods. It allows for the KA or SR. Your sump will sit level with the crossmember, not any lower.

 

 

did y0u ever figure out a sway bar for your set up

[djlotus]

What about getting a rear sump from a truck? I could have sworn I've read somewhere that you can get the rear sump pan and oil pickup and be kosher.

[Duke]

fiveNdime, thanks for the offer, but I like to do my own fab stuff.

 

As for the rear sump from a truck, from what I have read, it won't work. I looked on KA-t about it and it's a no go. I'm leaning toward a rear sump pan cause I wan't to fab up a really cool hammerhead pan:)

!

[kiznook]

+1 for front sump and notching the crossmember.

 

you know you'll want to do rack and pinion later. and you can still make a custom pan if you really want.

[fiveNdime]

Dislexic, Nope. I haven't put a sway bar in yet. I have an idea of what I want to do but not enough cash for that project right now.

 

The rear sump doesnt work......TRUST me. I used a 2000 frontier pickup motor in my bros car and its not happening.....right KIZ:D

 

Next time I will notch the pan for the sway bar.

[b210in]

when was the last time you smashed the front sump on anything?

[Yellowcar]

I just read about a guy with an Fj that hit his pan and also a guy with an SR.

 

I am doing a pan for mine safer and it will be easy to go back to an L series if I go racing

[fiveNdime]

I think theres something called a skid plate if your going stump jumping:lol:

[Icehouse]

When is it to far? I personally think it would be nice to move the firewall back a few inches, scoot the engine up and back. VG guys do it all the time to clear the mani, do people call there cars haked? I'm going to move my firewall back you should to :D as long as I can get the number 4 plug out I'm happy :D I think the line between to modified and just right is a thin edge. Why not do some crazy shit Duke? Mini truck guys make us look like wimps, they spend months welding on there rigs just to fit in, we flip the crossmember and we are called custom car builders???? Duke I say why stop at building a crossmember and pan? take it all the way!!! raise the frame rails scoot the firewall back add rack and pinion!!!!!!!! Give the mini truck guys HELL!!!!

 

 

P.S I want pics of the project :D

[fiveNdime]

Why would you want to move the motor up???? Thats the last thing you want to do! Otherwise I agree....if you have the money and time then fab away.

[Duke]

Haha, your to much Ice. I hope no mini truck guys are listening but, yeah they do do alot of work, but a good deal of them do kinda, um, how do I say this? Interesting job at alot of the fabrication. There are obvious excepions, but to be honest, some of the stuff just looks hacked. And to do stuff just so the car/truck can sit low just doesn't make sense to me. I wanna be able to hand Porche's and Vette's their asses in autocrosses!

 

So I guess thats what I'm really avoiding, having it looked hacked. It will be pushed up really close to the firewall, but I want to have the engine as low as possible in the car. Its all about a low CG. Also, as fiveNdime said, time is a definite factor in this build. But don't worry there will be plenty of pics of the fab work!

 

BTW-I'm a little drunk right now, so you minitruck guys should really take what I am saying with a grain of sand.

[Icehouse]

Why would you want to move the motor up???? Thats the last thing you want to do! Otherwise I agree....if you have the money and time then fab away.

 

Haha, your to much Ice. I hope no mini truck guys are listening but, yeah they do do alot of work, but a good deal of them do kinda, um, how do I say this? Interesting job at alot of the fabrication. There are obvious excepions, but to be honest, some of the stuff just looks hacked. And to do stuff just so the car/truck can sit low just doesn't make sense to me. I wanna be able to hand Porche's and Vette's their asses in autocrosses!

 

So I guess thats what I'm really avoiding, having it looked hacked. It will be pushed up really close to the firewall, but I want to have the engine as low as possible in the car. Its all about a low CG. Also, as fiveNdime said, time is a definite factor in this build. But don't worry there will be plenty of pics of the fab work!

 

BTW-I'm a little drunk right now, so you minitruck guys should really take what I am saying with a grain of sand.

 

 

Yeah I understand CG, I just mean at this moment my SR pan is about 3" off the ground. Nice and low :eek: If I could raise it about 2" and lower the car 1" I wouldn't really be raising the motor 2". I would like to have the pan at a SAFE elevation, maybe I can snap a pic and so you guys how it looks. Its scratched and dented all over!! To me if the engine was moved back say 3" and up 3" the car could be really slammed then :D So basically I wouldn't like to RAISE my engine I would like to lower my car without lowering my engine :D

 

I agree with you Duke, some mini trucks are haked big time. All that does is make the nice ones that much better :D I personally like old datto's just for the fab work. If I had to keep it stock I would have sold them along time ago :D I'm going to cut the shit out of my car, I want to do a quality job, spend the extra time to keep it looking clean :D I kinda want to have open wheel wells in the front. I always love the look on my bro's S10.

 

Don't be a pussy! :lol:

[compression]

I'm confident with my sheet metal fab skills, so I'm not afraid of the pan fab issues. For me, the ease of the swap is not really my main concern, I'm more looking to have the best outcome.

 

Honestly, my main concern is crunching the pan on something. I've seen this happen on a few front sumped 510's and with how low my car is and that I am planning on getting some 13's with race tires I could see this happening.

 

It sounds like you got your mind made up to do a custom pan. Good luck and be sure to post some pics of the finished product.

P.S. you might not be able to put the engine as low and far back as you want, due to the steering link mainly.

[JDM510]

some idiot did exactly what you wana do with the pan and in order for the right oil capacity and clearence and all that my motor sits in their like shit cant hook up a heater its just plain hacked job iv been looking at every ones reversed cross meber set ups and their motor sits in their soo nice not to mention the oil pan with a front sump and reversed cross member so dose not sit lower then the cross member and will never hit anything on the other hand mine hangs down about 1/4 to 1/2 inch down below the cross meber and already hit a rock o n the hiway and busted it open was a nightmare to fix

 

mckinny mount kit is my next investment for the price you cant go wrong

 

if you would like some detail pics of my hack job let me know

 

this is not how you want your motor to sit

 

 

 

[Icehouse]

Done right I think a rear sump pan would be fine. Do you have any shots of under the car??