FR-S/FT86/BRZ

[unhh]

For a few years now, I've wanted a 240Z, but they're hard to find in good condition. (Especially in the Midwest.) I'd love to restore one, but right now I need something I can spend more time driving than fixing.

 

So I see this news about a new Toyota/Subaru joint project that'll be in the US as the Scion FR-S, and it sounds like exactly the kind of car I want while also being the kind of car I need. Front engine, rear-wheel-drive, low weight and even lower center of gravity*, about 20 grand USD, and it's a Toyota, so it should be reliable... basically it sounds amazing.

 

But it's not a Nissan, so I got to wondering what the fine denizens of the Ratsun forums thought about it. Hence the thread.

 

*Yes, I know I just used two entirely different meanings for "low." Sue me.

[Hardwyre]

NOT A DATSUN! BURN THE HEATHEN!

 

... wait, 2 posts?

 

BURN THE NEWBIE!

 

Welcome, by the way!

[flatcat19]

Dont hold your breath that it will be 20 grand.

And Subaru's version will be closer to 32.

 

If you have no car know-how you going to get a new car?

[NOTES...]

Hardwyre.. Thinkin same thing.. but i guess he just may have a point sumwhere since he wants a Z... hmmm..

[Hardwyre]

Sadly, but very typical of the auto industry, the concept:

 

 

Looks than the real thing:

 

 

But it's nice to see a FR combination...

 

Wait... wtf? A FLAT 2.0L four cylinder is the only engine offered? Dear god why? Not even a turbo offering?

 

What the hell is with the rhinestones on the bumper by the way?

 

Oh wait.. what the hell. THREE companies are producing the car?

 

That rhinestone varient is Toyota's.

 

Here's the Scion:

 

Looks more like the concept photo.. which probably means bad things for the actual production model (think Camaro).

 

What does Sub's look like:

 

 

I like the dazzle camouflage paint job! I might buy it if that was a real paint option. :)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

[FoxyRoadster]

I'm not really interested in new cars less nissan decides to bring back the roadster, not the 370z one but a full fledged one.

[unhh]

... wait, 2 posts?

Yup, I'm new. I've been lurking for a while. But I know what oics are and everything!

 

Dont hold your breath that it will be 20 grand.

Hahaha, yeah, I'll only even consider it if it's actually very close to 20 grand.

 

If you have no car know-how you going to get a new car?

I currently have no car, but I work for my Dad who runs his business out of our home, so I don't strictly speaking need one - I just want one.

 

Wait... wtf? A FLAT 2.0L four cylinder is the only engine offered? Dear god why? Not even a turbo offering?

Nobody seems to be too happy about the fact that there's no turbo, but the idea behind this car is to take the focus off of HP numbers and try to make a fun car with accessible limits.

What the hell is with the rhinestones on the bumper by the way?

The same thing that's with all new Audis: it looks ridiculous.

Oh wait.. what the hell. THREE companies are producing the car?

It's a joint project between Toyota and Subaru, so of course they both have their versions. Scion is just a Toyota badge. It'll be sold with three badges in a similar way to the Eagle Talon.

 

BTW, the "rhinestone" one is a concept too. This is what the production Scion is supposed to look like.

 

[Hardwyre]

BTW, the "rhinestone" one is a concept too. This is what the production Scion is supposed to look like.

 

 

So that's what happens when a Celica and a 350Z double team an IS-300 and pop out a kid. I think the RX-8 had it's fair share of time in the jumble as well.

 

They did seem to keep the weight down to under 3k which is a good start. But that 4 cylinder just isn't going to produce enough torque to make this thing very fun.

 

I still toy with the idea that drivers licenses should be horse power tiered.

 

Oh, you're 16? Here, you can drive a Geo Metro. 300 horse? No, you can have that after you turn 21 or pass the certification.

[flatcat19]

Subaru's version is rumored to be an STi.

AWD/Turbo.

 

This car did have plans in my future, prior to kids.

But now, not so much.

 

Underpowered-yes.

Competent? You bet.

 

Early reports said sub-20K.

No way. That was before Toyota took a huge PR hit with their quality/recall issues.

Expect no less that $27,000 for this.

 

Why have car payments, and full coverage insurance when you can buy 2 Datsuns-one to drive, one to polish.

No thank you.

[flatcat19]

They did seem to keep the weight down to under 3k which is a good start. But that 4 cylinder just isn't going to produce enough torque to make this thing very fun.

 

You must not be an 86 fan.

You don't need torque when you're able to keep it in the powerband.

 

Torque gets you there, revs keep you there.

 

Toyota needs something to gain popularity with the young-ish generations.

This is their attempt at that.

I can think of another Japanese brand who needs to get their asses in gear, and follow suit.

[Hardwyre]

You must not be an 86 fan.

You don't need torque when you're able to keep it in the powerband.

 

Torque gets you there, revs keep you there.

 

Toyota needs something to gain popularity with the young-ish generations.

This is their attempt at that.

I can think of another Japanese brand who needs to get their asses in gear, and follow suit.

 

I never heard about the car before today actually; so I'm sort of neutral about the 86.

 

 

I am utterly amazed though that this car is actually going to be a real, honest to god small displacement FR car. As that realization keeps hitting me, I'm going to probably fall more and more in love with the car. But they're going to have to do a LOT to attract people if they're going to compete with the larger displacement rear-wheelers in the price segment. Their best bet would be to aim for the high teens. The moment you get into the 20's, you start having to play with 6 cylinder FRs.

[Hardwyre]

Nissan needs to step up and pull a retro move like the rest of the crowd. Hell, call it the 240Z-H (H for heritage).

 

Then use this guy's ideas:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.diseno-ar...0z_concept.html

[Dirk Diggler]

You don't need torque when you're able to keep it in the powerband.

 

Torque gets you there, revs keep you there.

 

Word. My Altima has the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder. The car weighs around 3k lbs, produces 175 HP and 180 f/lb of torque. It has a 0-60 time of 8.6, which I find pretty impressive for such a small engine. It was also paired with a CVT transmission. If you are not familiar, do yourself a favor and read http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission . The transmission will keep the rpm's in a range most efficient to the vehicle under normal driving, but when pushed the transmission will stay within the rpm's that will produce peak power. Plus its pretty cool to accelerate from a stop to freeway speeds with no shifting or ever going above 2400 rpms. They did add a manual option that makes it pretty fun too.

 

Toyota can have a great car if they don't substitute good looks for performance.

[datzenmike]

con·cept

   /ˈkɒnsɛpt/ Show Spelled[kon-sept] Show IPA noun

 

1.a general notion or idea; conception.

 

2.an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

 

3.a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.

 

 

It's just an idea and nothing solid yet. I've been around a long time and concept cars promise a lot and few deliver. The thing only has to look good on stage it doesn't have to act. Someone else with try to figure that out. The final production model is always watered down.

[flatcat19]

I never heard about the car before today actually; so I'm sort of neutral about the 86.

 

 

I am utterly amazed though that this car is actually going to be a real, honest to god small displacement FR car. As that realization keeps hitting me, I'm going to probably fall more and more in love with the car. But they're going to have to do a LOT to attract people if they're going to compete with the larger displacement rear-wheelers in the price segment. Their best bet would be to aim for the high teens. The moment you get into the 20's, you start having to play with 6 cylinder FRs.

 

Think Miata vs. bigger displacement cars at a race track.

Who has faster lap times and higher average speed?

 

Bigger displacement sure are fast on the straights, where the Miata is not.

But who is going to enter, maintain, and exit every corner with a greater speed-and keep that speed through the straight.

 

I think this car is going to be a big hit.

But perfect execution will determine this cars success.

[NOTES...]

Think Miata vs. bigger displacement cars at a race track.

Who has faster lap times and higher average speed?

 

Bigger displacement sure are fast on the straights, where the Miata is not.

But who is going to enter, maintain, and exit every corner with a greater speed-and keep that speed through the straight.

 

I think this car is going to be a big hit.

But perfect execution will determine this cars success.

 

Awwww.... Miata FTW... ollz.. but yes.. very good point Flat.. thats sumthin i try to explain to my friends too....

 

Had a +1 ur way but seems like im at my limit...

[flatcat19]

Awwww.... Miata FTW... ollz.. but yes.. very good point Flat.. thats sumthin i try to explain to my friends too....

 

Had a +1 ur way but seems like im at my limit...

 

86's are the same way.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umyXOwVKwT4

 

I'm sure the new FR will not disappoint either.

This thing will make one hell of a surprise attack in the Japan circuit on the tracks.

[HRH]

I'm not going to mince words: Fuck Toyota and their sports car, fuck Subaru for sharing platforms. Manufacturers need to STOP sharing platforms. It's bullshit. Make your own damn car! Why don't we just get the government to make ONE platform and have ALL the manufacturers build cars off of that? Oh wait, because no individuality is stupid, bad for business, promotes NO competition, and leads to crappier and crappier cars.

[unhh]

I'm not going to mince words: Fuck Toyota and their sports car, fuck Subaru for sharing platforms. Manufacturers need to STOP sharing platforms. It's bullshit. Make your own damn car! Why don't we just get the government to make ONE platform and have ALL the manufacturers build cars off of that? Oh wait, because no individuality is stupid, bad for business, promotes NO competition, and leads to crappier and crappier cars.

Firstly,

 

 

Secondly, what you're saying makes no sense. Through this project, the number of car platforms in production increases by one. As for competition, this car will absolutely compete - that competition just won't be between Toyota and Subaru. It'll be between Toyota and Mazda, or Subaru and Hyundai. (Mazda and Hyundai make the Miata and Genesis, which will be the two most direct competitors to the FR-S when it enters production.) Competition is not inherently good, it's the innovation that's valuable. If innovation can come about through a cooperative effort, I say bring it on. It's competition for the main consumer segment who only want FWD appliances that has led to boring/"crappy" cars. I wish more companies would take the hit to their profit margin and bring affordable performance-centric cars to the table.

[HRH]

First, I'm not mad, I just hate Toyota and they've infected Subaru with bad ideas. Second, they SAY it will be affordable. Generally that's bs. You watch when it comes on the scene, the sticker will be higher than advertised, and if it's not, it will only be because they've skimped on production.

 

Mazda makes the Miata (it's own, no other like it)

Hyundai makes the Genesis (it's own, no other like it)

Was the 300z and the Supra built on a shared platform? No.

 

Look at the platform sharing of Mercedes and Chrysler, uninspired pieces of shit with no direction. How about the Chrysler Crotchfire? Not overly horrible cars, but certainly nothing special. Now, even worse, Mercedes is going to share shit with the new Z car. Which is yet another reason why I will ever own a z car. I don't even care if it handles better. It's the principle. If everybody makes the same thing, but with a different take, all you have is the same pos in a different color box. How about a Gummer H2? Look at GM for the last 20 years. Hey, let's have a Pontiac, but it's not a Chevy, oh no, and it's not a Buick either, or wait, is it? Oh wait, same platform, and it sucks.

 

Platform sharing leads to laziness between manufacturers. If you go down the cookie aisle at the store, do you want a bunch of the exact same cookies, but one or two have different frosting on them? No, you want the iced oatmeal mother's cookies because they taste damn good. Far better than peanut wafers.

[unhh]

Platform sharing leads to laziness between manufacturers. If you go down the cookie aisle at the store, do you want a bunch of the exact same cookies, but one or two have different frosting on them? No, you want the iced oatmeal mother's cookies because they taste damn good. Far better than peanut wafers.

You can give me a bunch of examples of lame shared-platform cars, but that doesn't make platform sharing bad. It makes some cars lame, which is nothing new. When I go to the cookie aisle, I don't expect all the cookies to be the same, but I expect them all to come in little plastic trays so they don't get crushed. And as long as the cookies are tasty, I couldn't care less if two companies shared the design for the tray.

 

Here's some food for thought: the Chrysler Sebring (undeniably a boring-as-hell car) and the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X (undeniably an awesome car, and far from lazily-engineered) are built on the same, jointly-designed platform. Platform-sharing is neither good nor bad, it's just one way to go about things.

[Laecaon]

A flat 4cyl is probably Subaru's doing. That doesn't bother me, but I would like Toyota's version to be more Supra like, having a nice turbo'd 6cyl.

 

I think most interesting is that Subaru will no longer be able to claim all their cars are AWD.

[FoxyRoadster]

Awwww.... Miata FTW... ollz.. but yes.. very good point Flat.. thats sumthin i try to explain to my friends too....

 

Had a +1 ur way but seems like im at my limit...

 

 

I just show people this

 

Yes, it looses in the straight but look at how little it slowed down.

[HRH]

You can give me a bunch of examples of lame shared-platform cars, but that doesn't make platform sharing bad. It makes some cars lame, which is nothing new. When I go to the cookie aisle, I don't expect all the cookies to be the same, but I expect them all to come in little plastic trays so they don't get crushed. And as long as the cookies are tasty, I couldn't care less if two companies shared the design for the tray.

 

Here's some food for thought: the Chrysler Sebring (undeniably a boring-as-hell car) and the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X (undeniably an awesome car, and far from lazily-engineered) are built on the same, jointly-designed platform. Platform-sharing is neither good nor bad, it's just one way to go about things.

 

 

Evo X is ugly and heavy. The least evo-looking of them all, in spirit and performance. I still say principles are more important. Sharing platforms take away the soul and individuality of the automobile, and the people who work on/create them. Cookies aren't a piece of equipment though. We just eat them. We don't even use the package, so who cares. Cars, on the other hand.

[flatcat19]

What would've happened if Prince never joined Nissan?

 

 

How are platforms being crossed when Toyota owns Subaru?

Sounds more like resources are being shared.

 

An inline 6 in this car would disrupt the focus for building it.

 

And stated earlier in thread-Subaru's version has been confirmed it soil be STi AWD/turbo.