Retrofitting points, need assistance

[KFunk740]

The dizzy on my J13 currently has a Pertronix ignitor, with Pertronix flamethrower coil. I've had stumbling/hesitation often at 25 to 45mph constant cruising. All ignition parts look to be pretty fresh and new... dizzy seems to turn nice and smooth. I've suspected grounds, and tried to add a new ground cable from the battery to the body (didn't have one before), and I cleaned connections to the block as well, and may have gotten some improvement but its still there. I'm also wondering if the coil itself needs grounded better somehow (its sitting on rubber mounts), but I'm not sure if grounding the case better makes sense,

 

I want to try swapping in some points/condenser to see if it runs any better. I bought some from RockAuto, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to mount them. Can someone post a pic of what the inside of my dizzy should look like with points? And where and how the condenser should mount on it? Another problem is that I'm missing the little plastic piece where the wires exit the dizzy. I'm not sure where I can find one, or whether I can rig up something to work in its place.

 

Thanks guys,

Kevin

[datzenmike]

I'd look elsewhere.

 

Pull the cap off and suck on the vacuum hose to the distributor. The rotor should rotate slightly clockwise and hold position until you release the vacuum if working properly.

 

Are your wires, cap and rotor in good shape? Inspect the coil tower for carbon tracking.

 

If this is a high output coil have you re-gaped your plugs from 0.038 to 0.042"? Higher output can handle wider gap.

 

Is your distributor firmly grounded?

 

Last... are you using B6ES NGK plugs??? You could try BP6ES as these are used with the later EI high output systems.

[KFunk740]

I'd look elsewhere.

 

Pull the cap off and suck on the vacuum hose to the distributor. The rotor should rotate slightly clockwise and hold position until you release the vacuum if working properly.

 

Are your wires, cap and rotor in good shape? Inspect the coil tower for carbon tracking.

 

If this is a high output coil have you re-gaped your plugs from 0.038 to 0.042"? Higher output can handle wider gap.

 

Is your distributor firmly grounded?

 

Last... are you using B6ES NGK plugs??? You could try BP6ES as these are used with the later EI high output systems.

 

Hey Mike,

 

I'll try the vacuum hose tomorrow. But it's a hard line... not quite sure if I can get my mouth on that very easily (of course, that's what she said :P)

 

The wires, cap, rotor, and pretty much everything on this engine look sparkly clean, new, and freshly rebuilt. That's why I need to look for wiring mistakes or flaws in production quality of new parts. Which part do you mean by 'coil tower'?

 

I currently have BP5ES gapped at factory spec (forget what that is). Could try a wider gap and see. Wouldn't be too difficult to grab some BP6ES temporarily from my BMW 2002. That should only affect the heat range though, right? I've definitely got spark cutting out for some reason. I guess it could be carb as well, but all looks sparkly clean there too. I cleaned all jets thoroughly, but there really wasn't any gunk in them.

 

Thanks for the guidance, Mike.

[KFunk740]

Oh, and in what way should the dizzy be firmly grounded? I just assumed that it's firmly connected to the block, so it should be grounded that way, but maybe I haven't investigated that on this truck.

 

Also, I'm suspicious of the Pertronix ignitor because I've heard of lots of guys with that have had them fail for no reason in the BMW 2002 forum. I just prefer points, and would rather switch to them either way. It's just a lot easier for me. I've still got them in my bimmer, and they've worked fine for years with no real hassle.

[datzenmike]

The coil tower is the plastic insulator where the high tension wire comes out. It's possible to arc to the negative coil terminal leaving a small burnt path that looks like a tiny scratch in the surface. It becomes easier and easier for it to arc along this 'carbon track'.

 

BP5ES is a hotter plug. Anything in the cylinder that is hot can become an ignition point. Sort of like a glow plug in a diesel. That missing could be pre-ignition? I definitely would try the cooler plug.

[john510]

Did you install the Pertronix kit and then this problem started ?

[hogboy52]

..

The last place to see ignition problems is light throttle cruise. Problems here are near always from too lean a fuel mix. This could be either too small an idle jet or a vacuum leak thinning out the mixture. Common sources of leaks are the distributor vacuum advance or the carburetor vacuum choke pull-off.

[KFunk740]

Did you install the Pertronix kit and then this problem started ?

 

 

No, the truck had Pertronix when I bought it. That's why i don't have the little bits (condenser holder/connection, etc.) for retrofitting points.

 

 

hogboy: Thanks for the tips. Since this truck normally idles so well, I hadn't thought of checking for vacuum leaks. Might be worth a try. I don't know if I'm ready to go swapping jets yet (chances are that this engine is all stock, and has stock jets to match, but I haven't verified numbers).

[datzenmike]

Yeah the jets don't change themselves. More likely there is sediment blocking the primary causing a slight lean. Heavy throttle brings in the secondary and there is a power valve for richening too.

 

A leak in the vacuum line to or the vacuum advance wouldn't affect the mixture in the manifold I think. It's drawn from a port slightly above the throttle plate and is very small anyway. What a leak will do is remove the distributor advance when it's needed most during light low speed throttle with weak cylinder filling. A weak (very little gas and air) filled cylinder needs more advance to light the fire sooner (takes linger to burn) than a full throttle full cylinder. Without vacuum advance the off idle, light throttle, to 2,000 RPM range will be sluggish. Mileage will suffer and engine will run warmer.

[KFunk740]

Well, I went ahead and opened the gap on the BP5ES a little (hesitant to disassemble bimmer, as I might need it for work tomorrow), then I went ahead and just checked all the nuts holding together the intake/carb/vacuum. I snugged everything up just a bit more. A few were a bit looser than I would've expected. Now I just need to go for a test drive again, but I'm waiting on rain to stop. If still no good, I'll go ahead and give it the carb cleaner/ether spray test to find vacuum leaks.

[KFunk740]

Yeah the jets don't change themselves. More likely there is sediment blocking the primary causing a slight lean.

 

]

 

Don't think its that. I've had all the jets out and blasted them out with compressed air really well.

[john510]

Is your pertronix kit running with a ballast resistor ? what your'e desribing sounds like a problem i had after installing a pertronix kit.I left the ballast resistor in and had problems.Spark plugs would eventually foul after driving for awhile.The flamethrower coil i had was a 3 ohm.After removing the ballast i havent had a problem.If you have the 1.5 ohm coil i think you need the ballast resistor.How did the plugs look when you had them out ?

[KFunk740]

Is your pertronix kit running with a ballast resistor ? what your'e desribing sounds like a problem i had after installing a pertronix kit.I left the ballast resistor in and had problems.Spark plugs would eventually foul after driving for awhile.The flamethrower coil i had was a 3 ohm.After removing the ballast i havent had a problem.If you have the 1.5 ohm coil i think you need the ballast resistor.How did the plugs look when you had them out ?

 

There's no ballast resistor, and it's a 3 ohm flamethrower. The plugs seem to look fine altogether, it varies a little, but usually light tan colored.

[hogboy52]

...

Mike , we are talking about a throttle range of around 25-30% and distributor can leakage would very much have an effect at that range. This is a very early model and quite simple compared to the later but still the basic principles apply. Eliminate any stray leakage from auxiliaries that can effect the low range.

 

Beyond that you can deal with fine tuning.

[datzenmike]

]

 

Don't think its that. I've had all the jets out and blasted them out with compressed air really well.

 

They can be put back switched around.

[KFunk740]

They can be put back switched around.

 

Nah, only took them out one at a time, cleaned them, and put them back. It was stumbling before, and it was stumbling after.

 

I decided not to test for a few days until my new voltage regulator gets here. It's flaking out again, and giving me like 16 to 17V at idle... so I don't wanna risk cooking my battery. I tried popping it open to find any adjustments, but there's just a circuit board with no screws to adjust. So, I'll wait for my new one...

[banzai510(hainz)]

Also, I'm suspicious of the Pertronix ignitor because I've heard of lots of guys with that have had them fail for no reason in the BMW 2002 forum?????

 

They fail if not hooked up right!!!!!!!!Unilites also Must be under 4 amps

 

YOu should be fine running the 3 ohm coil.

Inside the dizzy there is a ground strap the the Pertronix most likely wants as I hook mine up inside the dizzy.

I am a firm believer in the pertronix system and have installed about 5 Pertronix units w/o any failures when using the instructed stock coil and ballast resisitor.

 

Its possible the volt reg is causing this or maybe the Pertronix to fail.

Make sure the gap is good on the magnet

Dizzy bushing isnt worn where the dist post if wiggling side to side(just worn out distributor)

 

Dont go back to points. I just worked on a 520 and the points dizzy is nothing bad bad news.!!!

 

PS where you find new Volt regs for theses old Datsuns?????

 

 

coil itself needs grounded better somehow (its sitting on rubber mounts), but I'm not sure if grounding the case better makes sense,

COIL SHOULD BE ISOLATED!!!!!!!!!

[KFunk740]

Also, I'm suspicious of the Pertronix ignitor because I've heard of lots of guys with that have had them fail for no reason in the BMW 2002 forum?????

 

They fail if not hooked up right!!!!!!!!Unilites also Must be under 4 amps

 

YOu should be fine running the 3 ohm coil.

Inside the dizzy there is a ground strap the the Pertronix most likely wants as I hook mine up inside the dizzy.

I am a firm believer in the pertronix system and have installed about 5 Pertronix units w/o any failures when using the instructed stock coil and ballast resisitor.

 

Its possible the volt reg is causing this or maybe the Pertronix to fail.

Make sure the gap is good on the magnet

Dizzy bushing isnt worn where the dist post if wiggling side to side(just worn out distributor)

 

Dont go back to points. I just worked on a 520 and the points dizzy is nothing bad bad news.!!!

 

PS where you find new Volt regs for theses old Datsuns?????

 

 

coil itself needs grounded better somehow (its sitting on rubber mounts), but I'm not sure if grounding the case better makes sense,

COIL SHOULD BE ISOLATED!!!!!!!!!

 

Easy there, chief. I'm certainly not looking for angry assistance. Sorry to burst your bubble, but in recent years perhaps the quality control may have dropped off at Pertronix. I just know that lots of people on the 02 forum have had repeated failures of their Pertronix ignitors lately, and most with Pertronix now keep a set of points in their car as a backup in case they're stranded. It sucks when the Pertronix breaks, and you start getting no spark for no reason. One friend had a hard to diagnose misfire that drove him crazy for weeks until he went back to points.

It's easy for me to adjust the points in my BMW, and most importantly I don't have to trust a little electronic box. If nothing else, I'd just like to swap them out temporarily for diagnostic purposes. But I still haven't found a decent picture of the dizzy with points installed, and haven't figured out how to mount the condenser, and nobody seems to want to help me with that. It'd be nice to know just in the future in case the Pertronix does break and leave me stranded.

 

What's the magnet gap supposed to be? I don't think I have any room for adjustment there, but I can check.

 

For the VR, I just had one ordered at Autozone. I told them to look up a '65 Datsun 520 (should have J13 engine like mine), and they ordered it for $30.

 

Yes, I know the negative post of coil should be isolated. But i'm wondering about the case itself, where it bolts to the body. I would think the case should work kinda like a Faraday cage to protect the high voltage in the coil, and as such it should be grounded. I had a friend that had trouble with a misfire due to weak grounding there. When he mounted it better to the body, things got better.

[banzai510(hainz)]

I Love Pertronix. best 70$ upgrade there is. Even the 2002 went to a Hall cell when hey first converted away from points.

 

OK

I was working on a J motor this weekend, a 520 . I know nothing about 520s and the J motor.

Well to make a short story shorter the points dizzy was acting up. It would spark w/o the cap put cap ON LOSE spark.

More or less on the cap side where the point wires went to the cap would ground . I guess wasnt isolated.

Also the kids put a MSD coil in there which was a NO NO(.7 ohms). I installed a point coil(1.6 ohms) I had in my truck and said this still might not be the right set up. Once we figure the point dizzy out it fired right up but the coil did get HOT.Point coil need s ballast!

I told them they needed a ballast resisitor. I didnt see on on the 520 electrical drawing and didnt see a HOT START wire.So Iam at a lost there. But I wired in the ballast then to the coil. seems to run OK before I left.

 

So the awnser YOUR question where your rubber bushing to hold the wires that goes in the side of the dizzy from Pertronix. STOCK There is supposred to be a square insulator with a screw and nut(it sa passthru short). the inside goes to the points. the outside will go to the condensore. plus have a male post to where your wire goes to the minus side of the coil. YOU need to find this part as they get thrown away when a Pertronix is installed

 

as for the coil grounding you dont need it as I run Supercoils(w 2 ballast resisitor) and they are all insolated(EPOXY OUTSIDE). Even the Pertronix flamethrower the higher end one is a EPOXY. the cheaper ones are metal(chrome/black)

 

 

As of right now Im ruling out the pertronix cause you say its inbetween 25 to 45 mph. If going 55 and the car is running good then I ASSUME it cant be the Pertronix.But still could be distributor as these are pushing 45years old

 

Could you post a photo of your resisitor coil set up.?

[KFunk740]

I Love Pertronix. best 70$ upgrade there is. Even the 2002 went to a Hall cell when hey first converted away from points.

 

OK

I was working on a J motor this weekend, a 520 . I know nothing about 520s and the J motor.

Well to make a short story shorter the points dizzy was acting up. It would spark w/o the cap put cap ON LOSE spark.

More or less on the cap side where the point wires went to the cap would ground . I guess wasnt isolated.

Also the kids put a MSD coil in there which was a NO NO(.7 ohms). I installed a point coil(1.6 ohms) I had in my truck and said this still might not be the right set up. Once we figure the point dizzy out it fired right up but the coil did get HOT.Point coil need s ballast!

I told them they needed a ballast resisitor. I didnt see on on the 520 electrical drawing and didnt see a HOT START wire.So Iam at a lost there. But I wired in the ballast then to the coil. seems to run OK before I left.

 

So the awnser YOUR question where your rubber bushing to hold the wires that goes in the side of the dizzy from Pertronix. STOCK There is supposred to be a square insulator with a screw and nut(it sa passthru short). the inside goes to the points. the outside will go to the condensore. plus have a male post to where your wire goes to the minus side of the coil. YOU need to find this part as they get thrown away when a Pertronix is installed

 

as for the coil grounding you dont need it as I run Supercoils(w 2 ballast resisitor) and they are all insolated(EPOXY OUTSIDE). Even the Pertronix flamethrower the higher end one is a EPOXY. the cheaper ones are metal(chrome/black)

 

 

As of right now Im ruling out the pertronix cause you say its inbetween 25 to 45 mph. If going 55 and the car is running good then I ASSUME it cant be the Pertronix.But still could be distributor as these are pushing 45years old

 

Could you post a photo of your resisitor coil set up.?

 

 

I'll see if I can get a pic if I can get time later, but might not have time. Yeah, I kinda assumed thats how the points/condenser should go. So, a wire goes from the points to the outside of the dizzy, up to the negative post on coil. Then, the wire from the condenser, just taps directly into that wire? So the same solid conducting piece goes to three different things?

I'm comparing this to my 2002, which hides this connection inside the insulating block, so I can't really see it.

 

We don't relaly have any pick 'n pulls here, nor spare Datsuns sitting around, so I might just lightly modify a spare insulating block from my 02. It seems that Bosch includes this part on new condensers for that car. It might need cut down to size a little, and I'll have to splice some wires to get the right connectors, but it should work. That is of course, if it isn't fixed already when I put the new VR on and take it for a drive.

[KFunk740]

Oops, disregard post.

[banzai510(hainz)]

Tana Know as Vindats1 on here "I think"

She might have a spare J motor distributor. I have to get her number or contack Datsunaholic,GGzilla. Im sure they have her number.

Best to carr another distributr and swap out the whole thing as it has all the screws and such.

 

the points wire goes to the inside of the isualtion block using a horseshoe type connecter.

the outside is the same with the condensore. condensor will mount on outside dizzy. youll find a threaded hole soemwhere.

the out side tab connecter will be also on the outsideof the dizzy.

the screw goes in from outside to IN then inside will have a square thin 4 sided nut. that holds all these together.

[KFunk740]

Tana Know as Vindats1 on here "I think"

She might have a spare J motor distributor. I have to get her number or contack Datsunaholic,GGzilla. Im sure they have her number.

Best to carr another distributr and swap out the whole thing as it has all the screws and such.

 

the points wire goes to the inside of the isualtion block using a horseshoe type connecter.

the outside is the same with the condensore. condensor will mount on outside dizzy. youll find a threaded hole soemwhere.

the out side tab connecter will be also on the outsideof the dizzy.

the screw goes in from outside to IN then inside will have a square thin 4 sided nut. that holds all these together.

 

 

Ack, been a busy week at both jobs... the new VR is in, volts are back in line. All the previous tweaks 'might' have helped it some, or maybe just masked the misfiring problem. More and more, it does it only when its fully warmed up after driving for a while. Hopefully I'll get some time to search for vacuum leaks this weekend. and hack together a way of making the points work just as a diagnostic for now.

 

Thanks much for the help Hainz. I should be able to make it go with just that info. Then we'll be able to isolate things a bit better. The truck still runs great altogether. It starts up and accelerates great, and on the highway it cruises right along at 60mph or so. It's just the 35 mph zones in town that are the problem, and only when trying to cruise...

[banzai510(hainz)]

try adjust the timming and maybe by chance it helps or gets worse.

try mixture on carb also

[H5WAGON]

Did you ever check to see if the vaccum advance is working proper?