Brake fade?

[metalmonkey47]

Anyone ever experienced it?

 

 

I noticed it in stop and go traffic after hard braking when dicks were cutting me off several times. After a few minuets, my brakes were stiff as a rock, but I had very little stopping power.

 

 

I almost considered going to DOT4 just for the hell of it...

[izzo]

Whenever i had brake fading it was because of hard braking... The rotors and pads would heat up and turn to shit. Really had to use some force to get it to just slow down. Soon as they cooled down it was great again.

 

Btw, fap.

[metalmonkey47]

Whenever i had brake fading it was because of hard braking... The rotors and pads would heat up and turn to shit. Really had to use some force to get it to just slow down. Soon as they cooled down it was great again.

 

Btw, fap.

 

Yup, sounds like my driving. I had some ass pull in front of me twice and I put my foot literally on the floor and almost rear ended them. i was extra cautious after that. Didn't expect them to go away so quickly.

 

After 3 hours parked in the shade while monkeygirl did her modeling orientation, it was still hot. East coast summers=fail.

 

 

 

Btw,

 

 

[datzenmike]

My experience with brake fade was the brake fluid boiling inside the calipers. A gas is compressible where a liquid is not and the peddle went to the floor and was extremely soft. Braking action was severely reduced!!!

 

I was being towed by a friend and kept the brake on lightly to keep the chain tight between us. It took several miles but when approaching home I stepped down harder on the brake to slow the car (an '82 Omni) and the peddle went right to the floor. Scary shit!

 

One or two hard panic stops should not boil; the fluid. The rotors and or drums have enough metal to absorb a lot of heat. They will get hot but should still work. Driving is the fastest way to cool them down.

[metalmonkey47]

My experience with brake fade was the brake fluid boiling inside the calipers. A gas is compressible where a liquid is not and the peddle went to the floor and was extremely soft. Braking action was severely reduced!!!

 

I was being towed by a friend and kept the brake on lightly to keep the chain tight between us. It took several miles but when approaching home I stepped down harder on the brake to slow the car (an '82 Omni) and the peddle went right to the floor. Scary shit!

 

One or two hard panic stops should not boil; the fluid. The rotors and or drums have enough metal to absorb a lot of heat. They will get hot but should still work. Driving is the fastest way to cool them down.

 

The hard braking was when I noticed it, but I'm sure all the stop and go down hill wasn't good for it. I found myself clutch braking all the way back.

 

 

 

I was scary as hell, because I stepped on the brakes at 60mph and it didn't stop. Had my GF in the passenger seat, and I was more worried about her then anything else. Don't want her hurt.

 

They didn't cool down too quick at all. The brake master was even hot as hell.

[datzenmike]

A good reason to keep and maintain your e brake eh?

 

 

I suspect your fluid is contaminated with water. Brake fluid absorbs it out of the air. I suggest you get some new DOT 3 or 4 and bleed the system to replace it. Check the rubber caps on the master reservoir for leaks where air can get in.

[metalmonkey47]

A good reason to keep and maintain your e brake eh?

 

 

I suspect your fluid is contaminated with water. Brake fluid absorbs it out of the air. I suggest you get some new DOT 3 or 4 and bleed the system to replace it. Check the rubber caps on the master reservoir for leaks where air can get in.

 

Freshly adjusted E brake, rear shoes, brand new hardware and all

 

 

Very possible, and it was a thought of mine. Should I just crack the bleed screws and blow it all out and start fresh?

[yello620]

Did the pedal actually get really low when it would not stop? Or was the pedal still high and hard, just not stopping.

 

Two different kinds of brake fade.

[datzenmike]

Yeah, my first impression was you meant the peddle was hard but not stopping.

[datzenmike]

Yeah, my first impression was you meant the peddle was hard but not stopping.

 

Yes by all means change out your fluid. No harm doing this anyway.

[yello620]

Your fluid might need changed, but your original description tells me that you did NOT fade the fluid. But you did fade the pads/shoes. Pedal fade and fluid fade are two different things.

 

Fading fluid cause pedal height loss and no stopping.

 

Pad/shoe fade is poor stopping power and a good pedal that doesnt stop the car no matter how hard you push on it.

 

 

Common misconception about brakes, and some words of wisdom here.

People replace the pads/shoes and think they have new-perfect stopping brakes. WRONG.

 

New pads/shoes need time to seat(bed) into the rotor/drum to acheive full stopping power. Usually this takes about a 1000 miles. During this time, they will fade super fast.

 

Now consider that most cheap Datsun owners did NOT have the rotors/drums machined, Now it takes even longer to seat the pads/shoes in.

 

Another thing that contributes greatly to pad/shoe fade is the original quality of the product. Cheap parts, properly seated in will still produce this fade problem. Autozone parts are not going to cut it here(they are crap), and most lifetime warranty products will have this problem too.

 

 

And unfortunately, most times, once newer pads/shoes have faded once, they are junk and need replaced. They just never seem to work completely correct after that. They work, but not as perfect as they should.

 

So, moral of this story is buy GOOD parts and properly install them, then seat them in correctly. You still had a solid brake pedal, that would not stop.

 

When you install really good parts and fade the brakes it is very different. Your good parts will withstand the heat of your driving until you reach the boiling point of your brake fluid, then the fluid compresses and your pedal will go all the way to the floor. Pedal will return after the fluid cools.

 

Side-note on fluid. I have had good luck with Valvoline Synthetic Dot3/4 fluid. I dont know its boiling point(or care), it seems to work really well in street cars. I have no idea what it might do in a track car.

[metalmonkey47]

Did the pedal actually get really low when it would not stop? Or was the pedal still high and hard, just not stopping.

 

Two different kinds of brake fade.

 

 

Yeah, my first impression was you meant the peddle was hard but not stopping.

 

Yes by all means change out your fluid. No harm doing this anyway.

 

My pedal was hard, but normal. Pedal travel was normal as well as resistance, however at the floor, there was very little stopping force. Very scary.

 

 

 

Anything against using Synthetic DOT 4? I have ALL new brake hydraulics. Calipers, master cyl, wheel cyl, etc. I suppose it wouldn't be bad to use would it?

[I'm BLUE]

Buy a giant bottle of Brake Fluid ,,,, Bleed the shit out of your system (Gravity , Mighty Vac , or Friend's help you choose ) ,,, til it's very clear !!! ,,, takes a bit ,,, but it works

 

Also ,,, using shit parts doesn't help ,,,, :lol: ;)

 

 

:D

[metalmonkey47]

[quote name='yello620' date='13 August 2011 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1313301928' post='529398']
Your fluid might need changed, but your original description tells me that you did NOT fade the fluid. But you did fade the pads/shoes. Pedal fade and fluid fade are two different things.

Fading fluid cause pedal height loss and no stopping.

Pad/shoe fade is poor stopping power and a good pedal that doesnt stop the car no matter how hard you push on it.


Common misconception about brakes, and some words of wisdom here.
People replace the pads/shoes and think they have new-perfect stopping brakes. WRONG.

New pads/shoes need time to seat(bed) into the rotor/drum to acheive full stopping power. Usually this takes about a 1000 miles. During this time, they will fade super fast.

Now consider that most cheap Datsun owners did NOT have the rotors/drums machined, Now it takes even longer to seat the pads/shoes in.

Another thing that contributes greatly to pad/shoe fade is the original quality of the product. Cheap parts, properly seated in will still produce this fade problem. Autozone parts are not going to cut it here(they are crap), and most lifetime warranty products will have this problem too.


And unfortunately, most times, once newer pads/shoes have faded once, they are junk and need replaced. They just never seem to work completely correct after that. They work, but not as perfect as they should.

So, moral of this story is buy GOOD parts and properly install them, then seat them in correctly. You still had a solid brake pedal, that would not stop.

When you install really good parts and fade the brakes it is very different. Your good parts will withstand the heat of your driving until you reach the boiling point of your brake fluid, then the fluid compresses and your pedal will go all the way to the floor. Pedal will return after the fluid cools.

Side-note on fluid. I have had good luck with Valvoline Synthetic Dot3/4 fluid. I dont know its boiling point(or care), it seems to work really well in street cars. I have no idea what it might do in a track car.
[/quote]

Whelp I think you answered all my questions!

My pads are new, but came with the fully loaded calipers I put on, so quality is unknown, however I DO have new pads laying around so I'll find them and slap em on tomorrow. Rotors are also new, and drums were machined less then 1000 miles ago, which I suppose is a good thing. Shoes however, were replaced less then 2 weeks ago.

Any suggestions on brands of shoes that you like? I am a noob in the parts world as far as quality brand shoes.


[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][quote name='DTP' date='13 August 2011 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1313302568' post='529403']
Buy a giant bottle of Brake Fluid ,,,, Bleed the shit out of your system (Gravity , Mighty Vac , or Friend's help you choose ) ,,, til it's very clear !!! ,,, takes a bit ,,, but it works




[/quote]

[/size][/font][img]http://community.ratsun.net/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/img][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]Clear as a whistle already. But I got so much laying around, I'll do it again! lolz [/size][/font][img]http://community.ratsun.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img] Edited August 14, 2011 by metalmonkey47

[yello620]

My pedal was hard, but normal. Pedal travel was normal as well as resistance, however at the floor, there was very little stopping force. Very scary.

 

 

 

Anything against using Synthetic DOT 4? I have ALL new brake hydraulics. Calipers, master cyl, wheel cyl, etc. I suppose it wouldn't be bad to use would it?

 

Pedal travel is NEVER normal at the floor. You are still describing it both ways. Low, and High. Which was it?

 

As noted in my last post. I have had good luck with Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid. Dot3 and Dot4 a basically compatible fluids. Dot4 has a slightly higher boiling point, BUT it absorbs water faster and lowers the boiling point way below Dot3. And Dot3 does not absorb water as fast and maintains its boiling point longer.

 

So you are fine to use the synthetic dot4, just make sure it gets changed out yearly.

 

And dont even consider using Dot5. Not worth it at all.

[I'm BLUE]

Have you checked your lug nutz lately !??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

:console:

 

 

:pirate:

 

 

 

 

I kid ,,, I kid ,,,

[yello620]

 

Any suggestions on brands of shoes that you like? I am a noob in the parts world as far as quality brand shoes.

 

 

Brake shoes are kinda a crap shoot, Most everything new is going to disc front and rear. So, the market and the technology for shoes is a litte bit ignored.

 

Front pads. I have installed several sets of "Centric" brand pads with acceptable results. Still kinda an entry level product, but better than most.

 

You are much better off with something from "Bendix" or "Akebono".

 

I really do feel that when working with brakes, that you get what you pay for. Think about what you "might" be getting with one of those $88 brake specials with a lifetime warranty. That is a scary thought.

 

Most lifetime warranty pads/shoes are super hard and stop poorly all the time and then fade super fast when they get warm.

 

I dont mind replacing brakes yearly on my cars, IF they stop better than everybody else on the road. I also avoid replacing front and rear at the same time, so that i am not trying to seat them all in at the same time.

 

OHHH, and i ALWAYS use a torque wrench on my lugnuts after removing a wheel. :poke:

[datzenmike]

Anyone ever experienced it?

 

 

.... After a few minuets, my brakes were stiff as a rock, but I had very little stopping power.....

 

 

 

 

 

Leaking cylinders/calipers will do this too if pads/shoes are wet. Not likely here though. Any contamination like replacing pads while eating KFC will do this.

[69FJWagon]

I have experianced this in 2 different driving scenarios 1. bad vaccum/brake booster 2. While autocrossing several different cars I left foot brake and unless you take your foot completely off the brakes you will pump up the brakes so to speak and causes a rock hard pedal, your situation sounds like glazed pads and shoes or a bad booster or both

[EricJB]

If you recently bought the calipers loaded, I would guess the pads are cheap crap.Get your self a good set of semi metalic pads.

 

Full metalics work better when they get hot, but they're hell on the rotors. Semi's are kind of a happy medium.

 

Years ago a lot of Volvos had pretty serious brake fade issues, And the cure for was metalic (or semi) pads and new rotors every service..

Those old bricks weigh like 3500lbs.