L20B with Crank trigger ignition

[dimedriver]

Grab the coils and the plug wires. The ford wires have a custom end on them for those coils.

 

Maybe see if you can find the crank angle sensor and trigger wheel. If its built into the flywheel don't worry about the wheel. The sensor should still work.

 

If you know anyone who races formula ford they may want the engine block.

 

-Dime

[NWOleman]

thanks dime! i will try to get everything i can then i can always throw the stuff away i don't need.

[DailyDato]

You don't need an ECM (engine computer), just a spark control module. Same thing, different software...just 8-bit motorola stuff is cheap

 

 

ggzilla, so I take it that you are running all ford components Correct? How reliably have you found your system to be, and does it help the strange idle miss problems of a L20 with a worn Dizzy?

 

But a GM ECU is like $40 at the junk yard and a prom chip to tune it with is around $5. The 7727 or 7730 ECU's work well find one of those in a V6 lumina or grand prix anything with that 3.1L v6 should have one. Then find a car with a quad4 engine and grab the memcal out of that ECU. Its the blue thing behind the door on the ECU.

 

dimedriver, you are working on using GM parts correct, what engine are you attempting its use for, I know you mentioned a good piece about the L24 with GM parts, but how easily adaptable would it be to go to an L20? Why use a V-6 ECU for a 4 cyl application?

[ggzilla]

Yes, it fixes a worn distributor problem. No distributor! I'm using Ford trigger wheel & sensor, but MegaJolt Lite Jr. controller. It is super reliable, and the plugs last forever now (like a new car).

I got bad news. The $89 kit no longer exists. No kits any mo. Now it is $161 pre-built.

Better to use Megasquirt at $187, it will run the e-DIS stuff. Not sure if it will work with a carburetor like I have though.

 

Sound like the GM ECU is now the hot ticket for a low-buck high-perf high-reliability crank trigger ignition. It sounds more complicated though. My setup was really easy. Don't even need a PC to program it. But it is cool to be able to change the timing from a laptop while sitting inside teh car...

[DailyDato]

I figured it would be alot easier to use the Ford components rather than GM, the Ford doesn't require the use of a coolant temp sensor, map sensor or TPS does it? I am looking into a megasquirt setup that a buddy of mine has, it has some pretty substancial upgrades tho, He claims that it will support COP ignition setups for any cylinder configuration from 4-10 cylinders, but he also has added ports to control like coolant fans, nitrous, boost control, not all to sure what all he has done with it, never ran megasquirt tho, so its all new to me, but if it can support COP, would it not also be able to support MPFI??

[dimedriver]

dimedriver, you are working on using GM parts correct, what engine are you attempting its use for, I know you mentioned a good piece about the L24 with GM parts, but how easily adaptable would it be to go to an L20? Why use a V-6 ECU for a 4 cyl application?

 

I want to make it work on the L18 in my 620.

 

It should be super easy to make it work on the 4 cylinder L motors. The hard part to both the EDIS(ford) and DIS(GM) systems is getting the trigger wheel and sensor on the engine. The GM trigger wheel is different for 6 and 4 cylinder motors. They look very similar. The diagram i posted should be for a 4 cylinder. On the 4 cylinder wheel there are 7 notches total like the V6. One is TDC of cylinder 1. The main 6 are 60 degrees apart. The 7th "sync" notch is 70degrees after TDC cylinder 1.

 

The V6 has a notch at TDC for each cylinder and a 7th sync notch at 10 degrees after TDC cylinder 1.

 

I get this from http://www.delcohacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=128&sid=438b4f3ad0565e8fb9e126077a88aa9f and the megasquirt sites.

 

With GM ECU's they are mostly all the same or compatible hardware in different shaped boxes. Think like the old saying "IBM compatible PC". Just the software changes between cars. The FWD V6's from the early 90 came with the right mix of hardware to run the code59 software. The original ECU for code59 was the ECU from GN, cyclone and typhon. You will not find one of these in a U-pull-it yard. The very best ECU from a plug and play point of view would be the turbo quad4 in the pontiac sunbird. Also a rare car. There are few other sought after ECU because of special features. One has more memory so you can Edit the tune while the engine is running with special software. I can't find the link for that one now but I will add it when I do.

 

The memcal is this prom-chip carrier plus a thing the GM guys call an ESC. It configures the ECU for how many cylinders, limp home stuff, and the knock detection feedback.

 

Here is what the memcal looks like.

 

If you open it up it looks like this.

 

You need an ESC that will run a 4 banger that is kinda like the L20. This is where the quad4 comes in. Its an over head cam L4. It just didn't ship with a nice ECU when non-turbo. Its in pontiac sunbirds and other small GM FWD cars from the late 80 and early 90's. look it up on wikipedia try to avoid the iron-duke(push rod based) I have not had good luck with the Memcals from them.

 

As for software the code59 guys started hacking on the code58 which is the stock cyclone, GN, Turbo quad4 and typhon software.

 

To put the code59 software on a 7727 ECU you remove the prom-chip from the quad4 memcal and put a socket in its place and then put a flash chip in the socket. You can also buy adaptors or premade sockets --> http://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adapter-tpi-etc-p-32.html?cPath=64 Moates.net also sells the prom chips and has a nice FTP site to download tunes from.

There are 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder code59 versions.

 

As for the mega Jolt I totally agree with ggzilla that its too expensive. There is maybe $40 worth of stuff inside that box. I should look into making a replacement for it out of an arduino.

http://www.arduino.cc/ They run about $30 and are really easy to program. The EDIS only sends one signal(spark event PIP) and receives one signal(advance SAW). If you wanted a static advance curve this could be accomplished with the arduino some resistors and maybe two 2n2222 or 2n3904 transistors. If you want 2d tuning You could just add a TPS or MAP sensor they only require a few more resistors.

 

-Dime

[dimedriver]

I figured it would be alot easier to use the Ford components rather than GM, the Ford doesn't require the use of a coolant temp sensor, map sensor or TPS does it? I am looking into a megasquirt setup that a buddy of mine has, it has some pretty substancial upgrades tho, He claims that it will support COP ignition setups for any cylinder configuration from 4-10 cylinders, but he also has added ports to control like coolant fans, nitrous, boost control, not all to sure what all he has done with it, never ran megasquirt tho, so its all new to me, but if it can support COP, would it not also be able to support MPFI??

 

 

Adding of the TPS, coolant and MAP sensors just add tuning capabilities to both setups. They are NOT required. Like if the engine is cold it may advance the spark some so it starts faster. The ECU or controller can also do stuff to make the engine run better when being lugged. I had a saturn with the DIS system in it and I could do 20Mph or less in 5th gear. The engine didn't seem to mind much other than not being able to accelerate.

 

Think about it vacum advance just makes the car run better when you are leaving idle or going back to idle. Much like what the MAP sensor could be used for in a system like this. But vacum advance is not required for the Datsun L-series to run.

 

The GM(DIS) setup requires an ECU GM or Megasquirt. It will run a default advance of 10degree (I think) if one is not present. If one is you can leave it with no sensors and just run a static advance curve much like what a dizzy with mechanical advance feels like but still a custom curve.

 

The Ford(EDIS) setup requires an ECU also Ford or Megasquirt. Though mega-jolt is not really an ECU its just a megasquirt with a bunch of missing stuff. EDIS defaults to 10 degrees advance when there is no advance signal from the ECU or controller. Like the GM system you can leave off all the extra sensors.

 

The current megasquirt is like a build your own buffet of an ECU. You can just have it control fuel or spark. Or both and in nearly any fashion you like. I think anything beyond wasted spark on a daily driver or somewhat warmed over street car may be over kill. Who wants to spend over $200 on coils. Though I think COP(coil on plug) is pretty awesome for high boost setups. The Ford(EDIS) and GM(DIS) wasted spark system are both easy to find in the junk yard, quite reliable, and relatively easy to control with megasquirt or their respective manufactures ECU's.

 

-Dime

[ppeters914]

This is some fascinating $h!t.....seriously. Appreciate the nice write-up and links, though I really -DON'T- need to read.

 

There's a handful of roadster folks who've adapted the Ford EDIS to R16 motors (maybe U20, but dunno for sure). I've already got a new EI dizzy, but there's still the other engine.....hmmmmmmm.... :w00t:

 

Pete

[ggzilla]

The hard part to both the EDIS(ford) and DIS(GM) systems is getting the trigger wheel and sensor on the engine.

 

just do it like this:

used some precision washers for spacers and bought a longer high-strength bolt

[ggzilla]

For the sensor I just used some scrap aluminum and a drill. To keep it simple it is non-adjustable, I put it on approximatly to TDC and torque the crank bolt 108 lb ft. Then fine-adjust the timing with the software. If you don't want to mess with a PC then you could make it adjustable at the bracket.

 

the sensor is from Ford aerostar van I found at pullapart Lynnwood. The cable a 40-year old guitar cable which is made of the correct shielded twisted-pair wires.

 

Remember I been running it two years without a problem. A lot of people say you gotta weld the pully etc, but it works flawlessly. Their way works too.

 

this is an EDIS pully I got froma ford at pullapart

[dimedriver]

Hey if I put a Zcar(L28) water pump, WP pulley, Zcar 3 row crank pulley, and Zcar alternator braket on an L18 what grove will the WP/Alternator belt fall in?

Because the pulley I made was a 3row that I removed the front row from and then machined down the Middle row to put the trigger/encoder wheel on. But when I put it on the L18 in the truck which is pretty stock engine wise, the Belt wants to fall in what was the middle row of the pulley.

 

 

carZs are easy to come by in the junk yards. All Datsun Trucks are pretty much stripped by the time I can get to them.

 

-Dime

[NWOleman]

what year fords have the DIS setup? do escorts run this type of system and if so whay years? I really want to go this route, i just don't know what year rigs i need to get my stuff from or what to get at the parts store. help me out here guys! thanks.

[ggzilla]

Most Fords from 1990 have the EDIS system, but only a few have a standalone EDIS amplifier like 1990-1993 Escort 1.9.

 

Almost all other Fords have it integrated with the EEC processor.

 

In addition you will need a spark controller like MegaSquirt or MegaJolt. For details of using it with a Datsun, http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=EDIS

[ggzilla]

If anyobdy wants this without soldering kits or engineering chips, just buy the MegaJolt pre-built unit.

http://www.autosportlabs.com/-c-1.html

You don't need a computer or a laptop, just adapt the Ford parts and the MegaJolt unit to your engine and wire it up (pretty easy). I built the KIT they had a couple of years ago but they don't make the solderable processors anymore.

 

I'm still interested in lower cost Do-It-Yourself options for my other Datsun, but can't find any proven solutions other than MegaJolt($161) and MegaSquirt II ($260).

[medengines]

just do it like this:

used some precision washers for spacers and bought a longer high-strength bolt

 

 

ggzilla, is the pulley you are using straight off the Ford motor? The"center steel insert" in the middle is part of it also? If so, what exact motor is it from...

I would also like to do this swap when possible, would like to start gathering what is needed for this..

 

There is always good info on this Forum!!! Ratsun all the way..

[zenndog]

Great thread!

[SlammedSunny]

I realize this is an Old thread, but I would rather post this question here than start a new thread.  When using a Crank trigger ignition on an L series,  Does the Distributor not have a Gear on a rod that runs the oil pump as well?  So by removing the distributor this could essentially come loose and/or pop out of place thus losing oil pump function? or am I totally wrong and missing something here?  Thanks guys, I only have access to an A series to look at, my L20B is in storage and I don't have a distributor to look at anyways.

[hobbes_the_cat]

On an L20b the rod with the gear that runs the oil pump is inside the timing cover and cannot be removed without removing the cover. You should be able to remove the dizzy and make a block off plate or just leave the dizzy there and mess with peoples heads when they see it running with no wires on the cap. velvetpants has a crank trigger ignition in his 521 and he just left the dizzy there.

 

Edit: dimedriver is right, you can pull the oil pump driveshaft by pulling the oil pump. :blush:

[dimedriver]

The oilpump drive spindle can be removed by pulling the oil pump. 4 bolts.  Buy a new gasket for a buck before you do it.

If you don't need a dizzy or CAS:

You can cut the top half of the spindle off if you want to, but keep the bearing surface above where the gear interfaces with the cam so it does not wobble.

 

Leaving the top half there and putting a cover over the Dizzy hole will work fine too.

 

 

-Avery

[SlammedSunny]

Thanks guys! that cleared everything up!

[datzenmike]

The spindle goes into place from the bottom and there is a bushing just above the crank worm gear that drives it. It can't move upwards and come out of the oil pump so no worries there.

 

I would remove the dizzy but leave the pedestal in place and plug the hole.

[dimedriver]

If you look at the dizzy plus drive spindle combos in this pic.

 

You will see a bearing surface above the spindel gear.  This is held by the front timing cover. The spindle must be removed before pulling the cover because of this.  The area below the gear fits inside the oil pump.  Some people even chuck these in a lathe and take the gear teeth off  them to make a oil system primer. They attache a drill to the dizzy end and run the pump with the drill priming the oil system on a rebuilt engine.   If your building a high reving crank triggered engine I would cut the part above the timing cover bearing surface off. 

[CameronT]

I just went to pullapart and bolted a ford pulley to the Datsun pulley. No machining needed

 

Daily driver for two years now, never had a problem with it.

Hey I saw on the trigger ignition forum for l20b and was wondering what you think would be the best option for the kit, and if I am having issues with timing on the dizzy now will it clear that all up?

[datzenmike]

fram.

[CameronT]

I am interested in throwing this together on my truck and would like to know who has done it and what I will need ??