510 L20B EFI conversion - the project is finished!

[Sealik]

Talked to Joe, he has never run a resistor on his tach line, even though it says there's one in the book. It looks like yours disconnects, thus breaking the circuit if removed, probably why it didn't work when out I'm thinking.

 

Debating about the injector dropping block not dropping current enough. May fiddle with that. Running but way rich could be explained by poor connections there.

 

 

Ya.....I thought the same thing.

But....obviously the EFI (mine) needs that resistor.

Carbed Z24 will flash right up without.

Good thing my EFI truck had the tac with resistor......still be pulling my hair out :lol:

[Sealik]

Your engine is going to run rich until it's warmed up.

I attached my Weber filter to the AFM as you suggested.......was going to that in the beginning.....but. :huh: :)

Anywho.....now the inspection plate on the AFM is upright. I can pretty adjust the clock tension in a matter of seconds.

Trying different positions.....I finally ended up at 2 cogs CCW.....pretty much where it should be for that size of the engine. Now my engine is not running rich.....and the plugs are looking better.

Soooooo....no air reg was making my engine run rich.....very.

Would assume you will be using more fuel than a stock 200 sx engine/EFI ??

Thus the clock might need a slight adjustment.....?

By the way.....is your EFI from a Z22 or Z20?

[HRH]

My EFI is from a Z20. Anyway, just got done fucking around with the car. Finally got it up to temperature, left the big vacuum port open to simulate the air regulator. I actually picked one up at the wrecking yard today off an 810. Decided not to put it in just yet. Dealt with tons of smoke as usual and decided fuck it, I'm just going to keep it going. Finally it leaned out, and the water temp was around 150 or so when I checked, so that's warm enough to be operating in regular mode.

 

Then she starts lean backfiring. Still not running great all the while. Starting to watch the fuel pressure gauge and it's cycling down to 25, then going back up. Lots of backfiring and pretty orange flames but no massive rich smoke unless I detach the fuel regulator. It's starting to respond normally, maybe it just likes the air regulator to run. And in hot weather, I doubt it's on much at all before it shuts after start up.

 

So after I got pissed off with the leanness, I dragged down the old tank from the '69 two door I cut up, to try and see if by using the top line of the two lines instead of the bottom, if that made some sort of difference. And I left the fuel cap off to see if the pressure made a difference. It didn't.

 

What I see in the '69 tank, which doesn't help that much because it doesn't have the other vent lines, is their are two cells in the tank on either end. They have a 2.5" or 3" hole to let the fuel fill in, obviously to keep it from sloshing dry around corners. It appears that the two inlets are just that, but I can't see past the baffle to verify.

 

About that time I checked the fuel level and I was again on E. So I'm guessing the gallon I put in was maybe more like 3/4 of a gallon and all the fucking around with it not warm and blowing smoke had used it all up. I'm hoping that's why the damn fuel pressure is cycling. So I'll fill it up with a full 5 gallons tomorrow, repeat the procedure and see if that backfiring goes away and the thing runs better.

 

If not, I'm going to go yank some other system, but not a TBI Bill, don't have a wet manifold anymore. Fuck me this project is a pain in the ass. It irritates me when I get to the point of cussing out the car.

[Sealik]

My EFI is from a Z20. Anyway, just got done fucking around with the car. Finally got it up to temperature, left the big vacuum port open to simulate the air regulator. I actually picked one up at the wrecking yard today off an 810. Decided not to put it in just yet. Dealt with tons of smoke as usual and decided fuck it, I'm just going to keep it going. Finally it leaned out, and the water temp was around 150 or so when I checked, so that's warm enough to be operating in regular mode.

 

Then she starts lean backfiring. Still not running great all the while. Starting to watch the fuel pressure gauge and it's cycling down to 25, then going back up. Lots of backfiring and pretty orange flames but no massive rich smoke unless I detach the fuel regulator. It's starting to respond normally, maybe it just likes the air regulator to run. And in hot weather, I doubt it's on much at all before it shuts after start up.

 

So after I got pissed off with the leanness, I dragged down the old tank from the '69 two door I cut up, to try and see if by using the top line of the two lines instead of the bottom, if that made some sort of difference. And I left the fuel cap off to see if the pressure made a difference. It didn't.

 

What I see in the '69 tank, which doesn't help that much because it doesn't have the other vent lines, is their are two cells in the tank on either end. They have a 2.5" or 3" hole to let the fuel fill in, obviously to keep it from sloshing dry around corners. It appears that the two inlets are just that, but I can't see past the baffle to verify.

 

About that time I checked the fuel level and I was again on E. So I'm guessing the gallon I put in was maybe more like 3/4 of a gallon and all the fucking around with it not warm and blowing smoke had used it all up. I'm hoping that's why the damn fuel pressure is cycling. So I'll fill it up with a full 5 gallons tomorrow, repeat the procedure and see if that backfiring goes away and the thing runs better.

 

If not, I'm going to go yank some other system, but not a TBI Bill, don't have a wet manifold anymore. Fuck me this project is a pain in the ass. It irritates me when I get to the point of cussing out the car.

 

 

Pull the inlet (fuel line) off of the pump.....grab a 2 ft piece of hose.

Stick that in a gas can.....with gas of course.... ;) :)

Any changes?

Ya....like how much fuel is actually in the tank and or?

I ran out once with the EFI....never again.

Had no tools....thought that with the fuel return line now functional, the pump would cycle the air back into the tank.

Negative

Would not start until I removed the fuel line at the rail.....got a good flow going... then reattached.

If you lose that 40lb of pressure from lack of....... fuel.... pull the line.

Then crank engine/pump .....over.

ETC.

ETC.... :D

[Unclejesse88]

I haven't looked super far into it, but I had grandiose dreams of using GA16de efi on my L16. Adapt a KA distributor, install a resistor in place of the variable cam timing solenoid, were a few of the things I was looking at. At any rate, it would be sequential injection, and a whole lot more advanced. Give it a look if you do decide to try another system.

 

BTW, there was a thread on here somewhere for "ghetto efi" that shows adapting the distributor.

[Sealik]

"ghetto efi".....?

[LenRobertson]

Any chance you could have partial blockage in either supply or return fuel line? I think some guys go to a larger size hard line when using really high HP engines, which makes me think the stock 510 lines may be on the small side. Probably fine for your engine, IF there is no blockage. To expand on Sealik's idea - get several feet of gas line and run both supply and return into a can. A fairly quick and cheap way to see if the problem could be tank or line related.

 

Another thing puzzles me - way back on about page 7 of this thread you mentioned getting 11.8 volts to both sides of the injector plug. I think I'm not understanding quite which two wires you were referring to. But one of the two wires going to the injector should only be 3 or 4 volts shouldn't it? I'm probably misunderstanding what you tested.

 

If you get to the point of needing a stock intakes manifold, I have several. But I suspect you are really close to solving your FI problems. I know, easy for me to say, I'm not beating my head against the wall.

 

Len

[wildmaninid]

I haven't looked super far into it, but I had grandiose dreams of using GA16de efi on my L16. Adapt a KA distributor, install a resistor in place of the variable cam timing solenoid, were a few of the things I was looking at. At any rate, it would be sequential injection, and a whole lot more advanced. Give it a look if you do decide to try another system.

 

BTW, there was a thread on here somewhere for "ghetto efi" that shows adapting the distributor.

 

I dont know about "ghetto", but whats wrong with throttle body injection? Yes it isn't as elegant as multi port, but you get smart air fuel mix, no choke to worry about, so cold start is a no problem situation, and they are low pressure feed systems, wich still use hose clamps on the fuel lines. I Chose 2.2/2.5 chryser throttle body to use because 1, so easy to find and I am a dodge guy anyways, 2, they use a hall effect switch, wich basically is a condensed version of a cam/crank trigger housed in the dizzy, that is why I adapted the chrysler distributor to the datsun pedastel. Hooked up the wiring to the throttle body, hall effect switch and MAP sensor. Used the chrysler coil and piggybacked the necessary wiring into the stock datsun stuff. The dodge ecm requires air to flow through it, to cool it and also to use it as an air intake temp sensor. I used a 12 v electric fan for a computer for air flow, like I have done on many dodge shadows that i did a non stock intake on.

 

Plus you can use your stock intake..........a carburetor mixes air and fuel and delivers it through the manifold, so now you have an electronically controlled fuel injector doing the same thing, and a bit of port work will make a difference just like using a carb.........

 

I think it is simple, elegant and if you remember there were MANY MANY turbocharged 2.2 2.5 chrysler rigs on the road, and they were setup like an L series with intake and exhaust on the same side, would be REALLY easy to turbo an L series engine with EFI this way, using tried and true readily available technology.........In fact thats our next project for up here in the northwoods.

 

Good luck with all your ideas!

Bill

[Sealik]

Any chance you could have partial blockage in either supply or return fuel line? I think some guys go to a larger size hard line when using really high HP engines, which makes me think the stock 510 lines may be on the small side. Probably fine for your engine, IF there is no blockage. To expand on Sealik's idea - get several feet of gas line and run both supply and return into a can. A fairly quick and cheap way to see if the problem could be tank or line related.

 

Another thing puzzles me - way back on about page 7 of this thread you mentioned getting 11.8 volts to both sides of the injector plug. I think I'm not understanding quite which two wires you were referring to. But one of the two wires going to the injector should only be 3 or 4 volts shouldn't it? I'm probably misunderstanding what you tested.

 

If you get to the point of needing a stock intakes manifold, I have several. But I suspect you are really close to solving your FI problems. I know, easy for me to say, I'm not beating my head against the wall.

 

Len

 

 

With the key on....I believe both sides should have just under 12V.

Of course the voltage drops to 3-4 when running....from the drop down resistor.

I had 3-4 volts on the pulse side of injector.....until I made sure the EFI harness was grounded properly, straight to block, then body.....then bat.

The main problem I had (not running) was not having the full 40 lb at the rail

[Sealik]

My EFI is from a Z20. Anyway, just got done fucking around with the car. Finally got it up to temperature, left the big vacuum port open to simulate the air regulator. I actually picked one up at the wrecking yard today off an 810. Decided not to put it in just yet. Dealt with tons of smoke as usual and decided fuck it, I'm just going to keep it going. Finally it leaned out, and the water temp was around 150 or so when I checked, so that's warm enough to be operating in regular mode.

 

Then she starts lean backfiring. Still not running great all the while. Starting to watch the fuel pressure gauge and it's cycling down to 25, then going back up. Lots of backfiring and pretty orange flames but no massive rich smoke unless I detach the fuel regulator. It's starting to respond normally, maybe it just likes the air regulator to run. And in hot weather, I doubt it's on much at all before it shuts after start up.

 

So after I got pissed off with the leanness, I dragged down the old tank from the '69 two door I cut up, to try and see if by using the top line of the two lines instead of the bottom, if that made some sort of difference. And I left the fuel cap off to see if the pressure made a difference. It didn't.

 

What I see in the '69 tank, which doesn't help that much because it doesn't have the other vent lines, is their are two cells in the tank on either end. They have a 2.5" or 3" hole to let the fuel fill in, obviously to keep it from sloshing dry around corners. It appears that the two inlets are just that, but I can't see past the baffle to verify.

 

About that time I checked the fuel level and I was again on E. So I'm guessing the gallon I put in was maybe more like 3/4 of a gallon and all the fucking around with it not warm and blowing smoke had used it all up. I'm hoping that's why the damn fuel pressure is cycling. So I'll fill it up with a full 5 gallons tomorrow, repeat the procedure and see if that backfiring goes away and the thing runs better.

 

If not, I'm going to go yank some other system, but not a TBI Bill, don't have a wet manifold anymore. Fuck me this project is a pain in the ass. It irritates me when I get to the point of cussing out the car.

 

 

Also.....not that this is of (primary) issue.

The air reg is always operational when under hood temp is below 176 degrees.

[HRH]

That is interesting information. Methinks for cold weather running that valve is a good idea. I'm screwing around with it tomorrow, think I'm going to try and pipe that in, but just going to stick a breather filter on the one side instead of dicking around with large amounts of after air-filter piping. Going to drill out the cold start injector hole since it's pretty close the the front of the manifold.

 

Wish me luck! Maybe I'll actually figure out what's up with the car tomorrow!

[Sealik]

That is interesting information. Methinks for cold weather running that valve is a good idea. I'm screwing around with it tomorrow, think I'm going to try and pipe that in, but just going to stick a breather filter on the one side instead of dicking around with large amounts of after air-filter piping. Going to drill out the cold start injector hole since it's pretty close the the front of the manifold.

 

Wish me luck! Maybe I'll actually figure out what's up with the car tomorrow!

 

 

Pics of plumbing...is....paramount :)

WTF.....maybe a video?

:D

[HRH]

Yeah, i started that video when she first fired up. And now I'm too embarrassed to post one to show my dumbassery since I consider myself to be a pretty good mechanic yet this project is still kicking my ass up, down, and sideways! :blink: If I can't get it figured out I will definitely be at the wrecking yard grabbing a different setup. How bad is it I already thought of removing the motor and wiring harness out of the NX? :) (No, can't justify disabling a decent running good mileage vehicle with known history.)

[Sealik]

Yeah, i started that video when she first fired up. And now I'm too embarrassed to post one to show my dumbassery since I consider myself to be a pretty good mechanic yet this project is still kicking my ass up, down, and sideways! :blink: If I can't get it figured out I will definitely be at the wrecking yard grabbing a different setup. How bad is it I already thought of removing the motor and wiring harness out of the NX? :) (No, can't justify disabling a decent running good mileage vehicle with known history.)

 

 

Negative on the non completion.....and or swap out.

You're just about there..!.......It's something simple.

Hopefully :rolleyes:

Unfortunately you will come to that conclusion after the fact... :lol:

[LenRobertson]

With the key on....I believe both sides should have just under 12V.

Of course the voltage drops to 3-4 when running....from the drop down resistor.

I had 3-4 volts on the pulse side of injector.....until I made sure the EFI harness was grounded properly, straight to block, then body.....then bat.

The main problem I had (not running) was not having the full 40 lb at the rail

Sealik - Help me understand this a little better. The wiring diagram shows a wire from the pos. battery post, through a fusible link, directly to the dropping resistor. Doesn't appear to go through the key switch or anything. Then one wire from the resistor to each of the injectors. The other injector wire goes to the ECU. Why wouldn't the wire from the resistor test as reduced voltage? My knowledge of electronics is minimal, so I know I can be missing something obvious.

 

Len

[Sealik]

Sealik - Help me understand this a little better. The wiring diagram shows a wire from the pos. battery post, through a fusible link, directly to the dropping resistor. Doesn't appear to go through the key switch or anything. Then one wire from the resistor to each of the injectors. The other injector wire goes to the ECU. Why wouldn't the wire from the resistor test as reduced voltage? My knowledge of electronics is minimal, so I know I can be missing something obvious.

 

Len

 

 

Good question Len......I have no clue :blink: :)

I think if it's running somewhat....he should have the proper voltage at the injectors then????

Gonna assume fuel pressure?

[LenRobertson]

Good question Len......I have no clue :blink: :)

I think if it's running somewhat....he should have the proper voltage at the injectors then????

Gonna assume fuel pressure?

I'm probably confusing myself and everyone else with something that doesn't even matter. I'm unclear exactly what goes on electrically inside the injector. I've been thinking one wire powers the opening of the injector, and the other wire "tells" it when to open. But I'm probably oversimplifying, and missing something important. I need to read more and maybe I can figure this out.

 

Len

[Sealik]

I'm probably confusing myself and everyone else with something that doesn't even matter. I'm unclear exactly what goes on electrically inside the injector. I've been thinking one wire powers the opening of the injector, and the other wire "tells" it when to open. But I'm probably oversimplifying, and missing something important. I need to read more and maybe I can figure this out.

 

Len

 

I believe both sides of the injector has (equal) power.....the negative side of coil just pulses 1 side...of the injector

 

I think..... :P :D

[Unclejesse88]

One injector wire gets power from the battery via the dropping resistor. The other wire goes to ground, via the ecu. The reason you have battery voltage on both wires when the key is on engine off is because it is an open circuit. At this time the ecu is not providing a ground to the injector. With no ground the resistor and injector are not loads, and therefore are not dropping voltage, so you measure battery voltage basically all the way up to the power transistor in the ecu that switches ground. When the ecu provides a ground, the resistor and injector turn into loads, and drop voltage. So you would measure battery voltage going into the resistor, reduced voltage coming out of the resistor and going to the injector, and ground on the other side of the injector through the ecu. Of course, when the car is running this circuit switches on and off rapidly. To test, measure the voltage on the ground side of the injector with the engine running. When the circuit is off, you should read battery voltage (because it is an open circuit). When the circuit is on, you should read zero volts or ground. Electrically the injector is just a solenoid, with windings and a pintle. When the windings are energized(ground applied/ circuit closed), a magnetic field is created that moves the pintle allowing fuel to spray out.

[HRH]

Thanks Unclejesse, that makes more sense. I was actually just going to ask that. Car is still running rich, fouled plugs 3 and 4, misses when held at steady throttle. Took it around the block and was okay until a full throttle test and thats when 3 and 4 fouled, which shouldn't be possible with EFI. Anyone else have any bright ideas? I'm wondering if the dropping resistor block isn't doing it's job. Fuel pressure seems to be correct now, just runs rich and misses.

[Sealik]

One injector wire gets power from the battery via the dropping resistor. The other wire goes to ground, via the ecu. The reason you have battery voltage on both wires when the key is on engine off is because it is an open circuit. At this time the ecu is not providing a ground to the injector. With no ground the resistor and injector are not loads, and therefore are not dropping voltage, so you measure battery voltage basically all the way up to the power transistor in the ecu that switches ground. When the ecu provides a ground, the resistor and injector turn into loads, and drop voltage. So you would measure battery voltage going into the resistor, reduced voltage coming out of the resistor and going to the injector, and ground on the other side of the injector through the ecu. Of course, when the car is running this circuit switches on and off rapidly. To test, measure the voltage on the ground side of the injector with the engine running. When the circuit is off, you should read battery voltage (because it is an open circuit). When the circuit is on, you should read zero volts or ground. Electrically the injector is just a solenoid, with windings and a pintle. When the windings are energized(ground applied/ circuit closed), a magnetic field is created that moves the pintle allowing fuel to spray out.

 

Excellent explanation.......was 'thinking' the same thing..... :blink: ...not... :)

 

Thanks Unclejesse, that makes more sense. I was actually just going to ask that. Car is still running rich, fouled plugs 3 and 4, misses when held at steady throttle. Took it around the block and was okay until a full throttle test and thats when 3 and 4 fouled, which shouldn't be possible with EFI. Anyone else have any bright ideas? I'm wondering if the dropping resistor block isn't doing it's job. Fuel pressure seems to be correct now, just runs rich and misses.

 

 

What temp was the engine at when fouling occurred?

 

A constant 40 lb at the rail?

[HRH]

Engine was full warm. 160 degrees or so given the outside temperature. Fan doesn't kick on until 187 degrees, but I only drove it around the block. Here's some pics to prove it's moved for the first time in 4 months! Still not great though.

 

Cleaned up the garage and moved her to the larger side seeing as I'm nearly the end or building another motor altogether! :P

 

 

 

[Sealik]

Engine was full warm. 160 degrees or so given the outside temperature. Fan doesn't kick on until 187 degrees, but I only drove it around the block. Here's some pics to prove it's moved for the first time in 4 months! Still not great though.

 

Cleaned up the garage and moved her to the larger side seeing as I'm nearly the end or building another motor altogether! :P

 

 

 

 

I like your 'notations' on the valve cover..... :lol: ...done it. :)

I see the air reg.....can't see the fuel return line....?

More pics :D

You get that air reg up and running.....some of your rich issues shall be MIA

[Sealik]

I think I see the fuel return line......?

[HRH]

Yeah, it hides behind the strut tower a little. I will hook up the air regulator. Don't know if it's going to help that much. Seriously thinking about getting a newer EFI system, something that has a little more advanced computer. Like the SR or KA. There's a whole Stanza system in the wrecking yard I could probably put in with little effort since I have most of the stuff wired now. Except that would be for a 2.4, but again I doubt the fuel requirements would be that much different.