510 Boso Wagon - Supercharged KA24DE

[fo0manchu]

some guys on ka-t.org are getting some good heat soak with the SC. Not sure how much boost, but I haven't read about any one pushing 14. I see them pushing 6-10?

 

What year Ka are you running? I know the 95/96 and up have a slightly higher compression and respond well to boost. I say keep the stock compression if you are going to run meth. Doesn't get to hot over here in the west coast anyways. And with a good tune, you will be golden.

 

Any way you go, sounds like a fun project and a fun ride when all said and done. I can't wait to turbo mine. I have all the pieces, just need to get my daily up and driving now.

[WagDatto]

I don't want to jack your thread with an argument...

but I disagree lol.

 

 

I prob missed this earlier in the thread but what kit did you go with?

 

I won't write this directed at you, but as you did earlier, this is more to clarify to our readers what the debate is about... How a lightweight flywheel affects the performance of your car.

 

The idea behind lightweight flywheels can go back and forth forever... Even though you'd see ZERO difference between a dyno chart WITH a Fidanza (or any other brand lightweight flywheel) and WITHOUT, there is a real-world difference. The typical dyno readings take the highest power from constant revs and lists that as its readout. However, there will be more throttle response with the flywheel installed...

 

When the car is being powered by the engine, the engine is basically pushing the car forward through gearing in the transmission and differential. The motor is not only pushing a 2,200lb wagon, but also the weight of the internals on the motor, the weight of the flywheel and clutch, and the driveshaft to even GET to the differential to push the wheels. When you remove weight from these things (lighter crankshaft, lighter flywheel, lighter driveshaft, etc), it requires less effort from the motor, letting the engine push the car harder.

 

In one explanation of flywheels (read this on a biimer forum somewhere), the transmission gearing basically splits the weight that the engine sees, so that you're able to push the car easier in the lower gears. When you remove, say, 15lbs from a flywheel over stock (I don't know what the stock KA flywheel weighs, but it's heavy, and the fidanza is 12lbs), that 15lbs is SEEN as much more because of the way the gearing works. The thread was saying that a lightweight flywheel in 1st gear makes the engine push as if the car was something like 350lbs lighter. If we look at the typical equation that "10lbs = 1hp", that gives us an extra 35hp of "oomph" in 1st gear. Obviously, as the gears go up, the "split" becomes less and less, so the weight lost will diminish as well.

 

HOWEVER, inertia and momentum DO play a big part in the way a car responds to things. With a heavier/stock flywheel, when you dump the clutch, it will NOT slow down as much as a LIGHTER flywheel. That means you're exerting more of that force made in the engine through the driveline in that initial jolt. Also, with a turbo especially, where spool is considered an issue, the lower your revs travel between shifts, the more boost pressure is being lost. With a light flywheel, the revs will not only climb very quickly, but also fall back down quicker too. This means you need shift quicker (which I guess could be considered a good thing!) to keep the revs up and the boost from creeping out. This is a reason many drag cars that are turbo'd are automatics, because less boost is lost by shifting gears. Also, many people do complain about driveability taking a hit as well. However, with a 12lb flywheel, I doubt I'll have any trouble adjusting to it. Many of the reviews on that subject come from people running 6-8lb flywheels.

 

So on a launch, the initial torque being applied to the wheels will suffer slightly, but I feel like it will be MORE than made up for by the lighter rotating mass helping the car pull harder, especially through the first few gears where I'll be spending the majority of my time "playing" anyway!

 

Back to your question.... what kit do you mean? If you're referring to the supercharger, it's a Thomas Knight kit. Eaton M62 (Xterra/Frontier), adapter plate, tensioner pulley, 370cc SR20DET injectors, Q45 MAF and stock throttle body. He is also including a GReddy Emanage Ultimate that has a basic tune for the KA. I'll be using the Emanage as well as a SAFC Neo (to start) to get the car running well enough to drive to the dyno and have Nate help me tune it. I want to go fairly aggressive, but not to the point where things start to break. With stock internals, I'm hoping for appx 230-240whp. With upgraded internals... Maybe a hair more? :D

 

some guys on ka-t.org are getting some good heat soak with the SC. Not sure how much boost, but I haven't read about any one pushing 14. I see them pushing 6-10?

 

What year Ka are you running? I know the 95/96 and up have a slightly higher compression and respond well to boost. I say keep the stock compression if you are going to run meth. Doesn't get to hot over here in the west coast anyways. And with a good tune, you will be golden.

 

Any way you go, sounds like a fun project and a fun ride when all said and done. I can't wait to turbo mine. I have all the pieces, just need to get my daily up and driving now.

 

Wow, after that essay I just wrote, I almost forgot I had this quoted and ready to respond to!

 

Yes, there will be a fair amount of heat soak at the higher boost levels. However, if I start to drive more aggressively or contemplate taking it to some drift days at Stockton 99 or Thunder Hill, I should have a water/meth setup before then to help with the abuse it'll be seeing. I work 2 stop lights from where I live, and most of the driving I do is around town, grocery-getting type of stuff. I doubt any heat soak I will be getting will be enough to give me any issues at all, especially since when I drive around town, I'm fairly well behaved!

 

As for not being too hot, we saw a few weeks straight of triple digits here in Sacramento... It wasn't cold! And I was out polishing wheels for hours at a time in that heat!

[69FJWagon]

Sean I cant wait to see this done, should be one hell of a kick in the pants with 10-12 psi. I know my buddys 95 240sx with a greddy turbo kit with AEM management and stock bottom end made 227whp at 7 psi and it made that heavy pig get moving just fine :D should push a light wagon awesome

 

Clayton

[goatee]

I'm sure a refresh would probably be the way to go but if your like me and patient (insert other words at your will like stupid noobish etc) I would be saying LETS BOLT IT ON AND GO FOR A RIDE YEEEE HAH!

 

:D

[ichorid]

Oh nice a drifting wagon. That will look super strange. Would love to see it though. What would you do for the rear end?

[WagDatto]

Oh nice a drifting wagon. That will look super strange. Would love to see it though. What would you do for the rear end?

 

Haha, drifting has always interested me. Many of the people in my area that I hang out with are into RX7's and 240sx's, and only a few are Datsun heads! When it's wet out, or the mood strikes, I'll slide the goon a little bit, but I'd love the chance to take it to a skid pad event... Always worried that either a curb will move itself in my way or that there will be someone watching that I don't want to see what I'm doing.... AKA Crash or Cops...

 

This is NOT the car I would pick for any serious drift events, but once the rear suspension is dialed in, and I get the front struts shortened, it should be able to handle some slides!

 

If you've been following my build long enough, you'll recall that I had issues with axle shafts snapping when I had my welded diff installed... Now, many people run the stock H190 with ZERO issues, even with a roadster LSD! What with SR20 swaps, VG swaps, etc... The power I'm looking to put through this car shouldn't be too much for the axle or the shafts. The problem I've narrowed things down to is axle wrap from having soft leaf springs and lowering blocks. It causes a TON of extra stress on the axle shafts because of how the torque plays through it. The issue was only made worse with the welded differential installed, which is why I had issues.

 

Soon enough, I'll have traction bars and a panhard bar ON TOP of the sway bar in the rear, and things should be locked down fairly well. I have an extra set of leaf springs in Phil's side yard, too, so when things start coming apart, I'll add another big leaf to my lowered pack to get it a hair lower, so I shouldn't have to use the blocks anymore, and it will be stiffer.

 

When that's all said and done, the welded differential will go BACK in, and the fun should start! At that point, instead of the axle "wrapping", it will break traction like it's supposed to. That's why guys with 240sx's, etc.. whose rear ends can't flex like an axle have no issues with parts breaking like I did.

 

Should make it PLENTY easy to swing some nice wide turns, I think! :lol:

[WagDatto]

I'm sure a refresh would probably be the way to go but if your like me and patient (insert other words at your will like stupid noobish etc) I would be saying LETS BOLT IT ON AND GO FOR A RIDE YEEEE HAH!

 

:D

 

I was doing some reading last night about when lower compression comes into play, and it LOOKS like stock compression with stock boost (appx 10psi) will be more than fine for me. Maybe someone can clarify for me...

 

The equation they had for effective compression was:

 

((Boost / 14.7) +1) x piston compression = effective compression.

 

This means in my case, let's assume I get 10psi like many people with this setup are (meaning no slipping belt)

 

((10psi / 14.7) +1) x 9.5

(.68 +1) x 9.5

1.68 x 9.5

15.96

Effective Compression = 15.96:1

 

Again, this is assuming none of my belts will slip, and I get a full 10psi of boost all the way through. From what I've been reading, anything below ABOUT 18:1 is fine with a good tune and pump gas. I already run 91 octane anyway, so nothing will change there. Considering I can't just buy a boost controller for my turbo and turn things up a few PSI, I'll stick with stock compression, I think!

[71ka510]

if you are gonna do all the internal work, why not put on 1000cc injectors and get it tuned with e85? just did this on a 2008 evo x....... the e85 is 2.29 a gallon... and made 55 whp more than the 91 with the same upgrades ( well except the injectors ) . and it smells delicious ;) i would reccomend a water/meth injection to keep air charge temps down... hot air is bad for any engine..... boost or not... at least fab up a c.a.i. but hope you get that started soon..... hopefully boost mine someday........ already have 90% of the parts, just need the injectors, and aem,haltech,etc....... oh and hope phil liked the bumpers....... :::hugs:::

[72240z]

I'll never understand throwing huge injectors in motors that don't even come close to needing them. 1000cc for a 250hp goal is ridiculous in my opinion.

[NorCalDime]

Well i think for the 250hp range 550s would be plenty for e85, maybe 740s if you wanted some wriggle room.

 

and the nice thing would that it would majorly lower combustion temps and you could crank the timing up and get an aggressive tune and have no worries.

[71ka510]

the 1000cc for the e85 is a MUST on a subie or evo ( they start at 550cc... so might be able to get away with 550-600 on a ka... 250whp goal? the 1000cc was on an EVO!!! more like 380whp.... but before you rant about the 1000cc injectors, read more about e85 tuning......bigger injectors are a must....... and i have seen ka24e-t's making over 280-300wp and i am sure sean will look into his options........

 

F*#@ it!!! alchohol conversion, nitrous and huge blower haa

[NorCalDime]

why be a supercharged gas powered wagon

 

when you can be..

 

The Blown Corn Fed Boso GOON!

[71ka510]

on the evo, we added sooo much timing it was ridiculous..... and at 30psi of boost... one count of knock .... that is amazing for an evo.. they tend to get alot of " false" knock...... some day the dime is going e85..... 229 a gallon, 350whp, and heis still getting 17-20mpg ( 20-23 with 230whp was stock ) oh and hey chris, i fell into a evo fmic, 16g, tial bov, and possibly some injectors for..... FREE

 

hugs to eeryone.... no hate haha

[WagDatto]

Haha, way to strike up a conversation inside my build thread you morons!

 

I don't need anything above the 370cc injectors. There's no point, since I can't squeeze enough air into the motor to make use of them. I'm not going to tune for higher octane, because honestly... I doubt that the hassle of buying special gas is worth the gains it would get me.

 

I'm leaning away from changing the compression, and if anything, maybe upping it from 9.5:1 to 10.0:1, as it's still a tolerable as far as effective compression and pump gas. I know that the rods are the weak point in a KA, since they're long and skinny (I already hear the comments!), so those will be replaced with something a bit stronger.

 

Really the main piece of the puzzle, as I'm reading, is a good set of cams. Cams don't make sense at all to me, so I'll likely be calling BC when I've got the extra cash, explaining what I have, and taking their advice on some mildly aggressive cams.

 

Any suggestions?

[71ka510]

waaaah haha just saying sean, read up on e85..... gains are worth it!!!...

 

and i found a few guys running turbos, on fully stock ka24de, and putting down 350whp+ . and read up on greddy e-manage heard many a night mare about those things resetting themselves........

 

anywho.....if you ever need help with engine building, let me know..... thats the area i am good with.......

 

and a 2.4 litre ,with 14psi...... hmmm sounds close to a stock wrx... ( 2.5 litre, 12psi ) sure a 370cc would be enough? even the 2.0 bugeye subie had 525cc with 12psi .......

 

well, either way..... i hope it comes together soon, i love the sound of a supercharger. how bout nawz, some streetglow lights, anodized lugs, short shifter, offset race stripes and turn your emblem upside down? paul walker style lol....

[71ka510]

oh and did you ever find a use for those struts?

[NorCalDime]

Haha, way to strike up a conversation inside my build thread you morons!

 

I don't need anything above the 370cc injectors. There's no point, since I can't squeeze enough air into the motor to make use of them. I'm not going to tune for higher octane, because honestly... I doubt that the hassle of buying special gas is worth the gains it would get me.

 

I'm leaning away from changing the compression, and if anything, maybe upping it from 9.5:1 to 10.0:1, as it's still a tolerable as far as effective compression and pump gas. I know that the rods are the weak point in a KA, since they're long and skinny (I already hear the comments!), so those will be replaced with something a bit stronger.

 

Really the main piece of the puzzle, as I'm reading, is a good set of cams. Cams don't make sense at all to me, so I'll likely be calling BC when I've got the extra cash, explaining what I have, and taking their advice on some mildly aggressive cams.

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

thing is with the sr injectors you reach 100% duty cycle at 260ish hp. now that is flywheel hp

 

you should never go over 80% duty cycle. so that leaves you with only being able to pull a little over 200 wheel with sr injectors before you are leaning out.

 

moral of the story is get big ones!

[WagDatto]

From everything I've heard, the 370cc SR injectors start to nose out at around 300hp. Knocking my way up to a 555cc Nismo injector would be if I were in the 500hp range.

 

I might snag a cheap FPR to ensure that the 370's will have plenty of feed available to them, but I doubt I'd have an issue either way.

[fo0manchu]

 

Really the main piece of the puzzle, as I'm reading, is a good set of cams. Cams don't make sense at all to me, so I'll likely be calling BC when I've got the extra cash, explaining what I have, and taking their advice on some mildly aggressive cams.

 

Any suggestions?

 

i vote for get two stock 248 cams and call it a day. If your not on a budget, then go get some BC cams. That will raise your power band up in the rpm range a little bit. If you want a little bit more pep down low, change your final gear ratio. Drop it to a 4.11? Should still be a decent ride on the freeways. Or stick with a 3.9. I like the 3.9 with the KA, feels good! As far as 370cc's, you'll probably more than likely reach 100% duty cycle at 1 bar of boost. I've heard mixed stories on 370's. some people run fine at 12, some people are maxed out at 8. Slap them on and get a good tune. If A/F's are good and injectors aren't over worked, then your golden.

 

If 370's dont work for me, then I'll probably end up getting a top feed rail and put on some rx7 460cc injectors. But thats just me cause i'm on a budget and thats the cheap route.

[72240z]

thing is with the sr injectors you reach 100% duty cycle at 260ish hp. now that is flywheel hp

 

you should never go over 80% duty cycle. so that leaves you with only being able to pull a little over 200 wheel with sr injectors before you are leaning out.

 

moral of the story is get big ones!

 

How can you make that statement when there are stock sr's making 250hp the black top from the s15 does, the red tops out of the gti-r and avenir from the 90's no less is right behind it, stock. The sr injectors can hang just fine.

 

1 bar is still well over the goal boost no? Wasn't it 14 MAX? 370 is just fine. People go to big on injectors imho, they should fit the task.

Edited August 21, 2009 by 72240z

[fo0manchu]

Well it depends on the size of the turbo/supercharger as well. I'm not sure how the supercharger compares to a t3. But there definately is a big difference in 10lbs of boost coming from a t25 and a t3/t4.

 

Anyways, I say enough of this talk about injectors! 370 will be a good baseline. Just put that sucker together and deal with the tune later. I just want to see pictures of this supercharger build already wagdatto! :)

 

Oh yah, and one bar is about 14.7 lbs of boost.

[WagDatto]

Well it depends on the size of the turbo/supercharger as well. I'm not sure how the supercharger compares to a t3. But there definately is a big difference in 10lbs of boost coming from a t25 and a t3/t4.

 

Anyways, I say enough of this talk about injectors! 370 will be a good baseline. Just put that sucker together and deal with the tune later. I just want to see pictures of this supercharger build already wagdatto! :)

 

Oh yah, and one bar is about 14.7 lbs of boost.

 

Well apparently after this weekend, I should have the rest of the money to get the kit shipped finally!

 

Once it gets here, I'm going to lay everything out, draw up some templates, bring all my extra parts to Phil's place and start mocking things up for some pictures!!

[WagDatto]

So I got my SAFC Neo installed. I left the MAF and TPS un-wired because I don't want to tune yet, but they're ready when I am. Works well as a tach, since I don't have one, plus it looks baller.

 

Also, tomorrow, I should have the Thomas Knight kit shipped out... finally! Once it gets here, I've been debating going about my build a few ways, which I've been talking about on Ratsun.

 

I'm sticking to stock compression - 9.5:1, which should be more than tuneable with 10psi (which is the most I can get from this setup without custom pulleys). I could go for lower compression, in case I ever decide to up the boost, but with an estimated 250whp, I don't think I'd want to go through the trouble to give myself minimal gains with more heat.

 

I keep going back and forth on whether I should buy forged/new internals or keep what's in there. It'd be nice to have fresh internals, but there's ZERO damage to the walls, and the motor ran great before it was removed and set aside (I drove it before it was yanked). Even looking at the color of the oil in the head, everything is nice and golden, no gunk, and Nelson took great care of it while it was his.

 

Also, I'm definitely going back and forth on yanking the crank and having it lightened/knife edged and balanced... What are the gains of doing this? Should I have the whole rotating assembly balanced or just the crank shaft? Obviously less rotating mass = more power put down, quicker revs and smoother downshifts... at the cost of a little torque.

 

Also, I've been going back and forth on ideas for the engine bay. Originally, I was going to paint the bay gloss white and layer it down with a ton of clear over the top. But I know I'll turn into a detailing maniac , trying to keep it clean. Now, I'm thinking about using the Duplicolor "Effex" paint. Gloss black with rainbow flake, and cover that with a few good coats of the clear with rainbow flake to give it a really deep, wet look and protection... and then probably put regular clear over that! What are your opinions?!

 

Took a cruise the other day, and stopped to take some pictures.

 

 

And tonight, while I was working out, my alarm went off... Ran outside to see a broken cargo window... Bastards hit it with a bat at like 9:30pm out front of my house... Why so early?! And why my car?! Luckily, my buddy James is hooking me up with a new window and possibly a new seal if his is in better shape than mine. I'll get a new one in there this weekend, it sounds like. Motherfuckers. I was fucking ready to meet them outside, too! Shoulders and arms had my all warmed up.. I was more bummed cuz it was my favorite workout and I had to quit early tonight while I plexi-glassed the window.

 

 

Anyway, that's it for now. Let me know what your opinions are on stuff!!

[72240z]

At the cost of a little tq who would say that?! lol j/k

 

If your going to balance the crank I would edge it, if for no other reason but because your at that point already.

 

Sorry to hear about the window, just ridiculous. Arm/shoulder day is my fav too lol.

[WagDatto]

At the cost of a little tq who would say that?! lol j/k

 

If your going to balance the crank I would edge it, if for no other reason but because your at that point already.

 

Sorry to hear about the window, just ridiculous. Arm/shoulder day is my fav too lol.

 

Well yeah, but I just mean... for the cost, is it worth it to balance the crank on a KA? This post was a direct copy from my post on Zilvia, which is where I assumed I'd get the answers I was looking for for the motor...

 

SR's are internally balanced, and rev much smoother from experience. I'm wondering how much good balancing the KA would do... Any ideas?

 

Yeah, the window deal was retarded, and now I'm hella sketched out that every car driving by my house is going to fuck with the car. And half the time I look out the window, there's no car there!

 

And yeah... P90X has been kicking my ass. Today was Day #10, and I've lost 4-5 lbs, and gained some real muscle/definition so far. I'm way stoked for November 22, which is my "finish day" for the first round. Anybody interested in it, but worried it's a hoax... it's not.

 

http://zilvia.net/f/off-topic-chat/265929-p90x.html