HELP---Strange Engine Noise is very puzzling

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I assume you checked the flywheel bolts when you had the trans out.

[datzenmike]

I sheared of my 521 flywheel bolts and they were tight. I left the engine out under a tarp and the threads got rusty. When I tightened the bolts the tightened up alright but before they were actually up against the flywheel. FWIW there was no sound.

[raythomas]

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I assume you checked the flywheel bolts when you had the trans out.

Yes sir I did. And they were all tight. Just a thought, what about that thin aluminum dust shield plate between the trans bellhousing and the engine block? Something rubbing that would sound like my noise. But the bellhousing bolts were all tight, not to mention the two bolts from the front side holding the starter in. Can't really see that being an issue then I guess.

Thx

Ray

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Doubt it's the rear plate, but at this point...

[raythomas]

1 hour ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Doubt it's the rear plate, but at this point...

Its hard to describe and I know that doesn't help at all but the sound is loose sounding, like something banging against something large. And with the cadence it happens in its something large or big around not something tiny and small. It's not a "fast" clicking. Wish I knew if it was something in the transmission itself. I wouldn't want to think so cause it shifts like butter and always has. It doesn't jump out of gear or make any kind of noise while shifting through the gears. I got my father-in-law to get in the truck with the parking brake pulled and the back of the truck secured to another larger truck so it wouldn't move. Then had him put truck in gear and get it pulling in a load so to speak and the noise did happen. And like I said before I could "feel" it clanging through the bell housing. That's what led me to take the trans out and check the clutch in the first place. Nothing basically happened to the truck different to cause this. I hadn't pulled anything with it nor had I hauled anything in it. Just normal driving around. Is there something else I should be looking for in the crankcase while I've got the oil pan still off?

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

If it was tested under load with the e brake on or against a wall so the vehicle is stationary, but by revving and letting the clutch out to provide a load... then (ignoring the clutch and actuation mechanisms) there are no parts inside the transmission that are moving.

 

We never really finished with the release bearing and collar. That is moving any time the clutch is in use and might be spinning if that is the incorrect release collar. Do you have both collars and can you confirm they are exactly the same??? If not, a new bearing will fix the noise till it too fails again... at least you'd know it's the collar.

[raythomas]

45 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

If it was tested under load with the e brake on or against a wall so the vehicle is stationary, but by revving and letting the clutch out to provide a load... then (ignoring the clutch and actuation mechanisms) there are no parts inside the transmission that are moving.

 

We never really finished with the release bearing and collar. That is moving any time the clutch is in use and might be spinning if that is the incorrect release collar. Do you have both collars and can you confirm they are exactly the same??? If not, a new bearing will fix the noise till it too fails again... at least you'd know it's the collar.

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the statement. Your asking if I "still" have "both" release collars? I'm assuming your speaking of the collar that has the arm on it protruding out the right side of the transmission and has the throw out bearing on the other end? I only have the one transmission and I have not bought any new parts so that's why I don't understand what you meant. Please explain sir.

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

When you changed the clutch you said you changed the release bearing and collar. So you must have had two of them. There's the possibility that the new one was the wrong length.

 

At this point a lot of things have been investigated and not much definitively found. You say inside the bell housing area so... 

[raythomas]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

When you changed the clutch you said you changed the release bearing and collar. So you must have had two of them. There's the possibility that the new one was the wrong length.

 

At this point a lot of things have been investigated and not much definitively found. You say inside the bell housing area so... 

No sir, I have NOT replaced the clutch. I was just showing you all pictures I took of the clutch after I took the trans out the other day. Therefore I have no other clutch or clutch parts at this time. Sorry for the confusion if I caused any.

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

My mistake then. I get lots of mail and lots of questions here so it's ME that's confused. The one I'm thinking of was replaced only 500 miles ago, obviously not yours.

[raythomas]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

My mistake then. I get lots of mail and lots of questions here so it's ME that's confused. The one I'm thinking of was replaced only 500 miles ago, obviously not yours.

That's fine, I am totally okay with that. I'm so thankful that you fellows are as helpful as you are. It's been a great help to me to have someone to talk to about it all.

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

Share the load, I always say.

[raythomas]

So at this point I'm thinking I'm just gonna get a new oil pan gasket and put the oil pan back on, put oil in it and then proceed to reinstall the clutch and transmission. While I have it up where I can get under it easy I'll let my father-in-law do the locked parking brake thingy and try to load the engine down again to see if it makes noise. I'm seriously thinking about taking the fan off the motor to help cut down on extra noise so I can hear better. Is there an easy way to take just the fan off? If not I can always just loosen the alternator and let the belt go slack so the fan won't turn. No longer than we will be running the engine to listen for the sound it shouldn't hurt with any kind of over heating issues. It takes less than a few seconds to see if its still making the noise. Any tips you fellows got I'd love to hear them. Will start putting truck back together tomorrow night after work.

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

Loosen the belt.

[raythomas]

Well had a good night in the shop tonight after work. Got the oil pan back on and the front cross member bolted back into the frame. Also got the clutch and pressure plate mounted back on the flywheel. Gonna shoot for getting the trans back in it tomorrow night. Fingers crossed.

Thx
Ray

Edited January 10, 2023 by raythomas

[datzenmike]

Well perhaps the act of observing changes the outcome. I've taken things apart to fix something only to not find anything, put back together and problem gone. Can only assume something was loose or out of adjustment and putting back together corrected it. Lets hope.

[paradime]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

Well perhaps the act of observing changes the outcome. I've taken things apart to fix something only to not find anything, put back together and problem gone. Can only assume something was loose or out of adjustment and putting back together corrected it. Lets hope.

Been there X2

[raythomas]

9 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Well perhaps the act of observing changes the outcome. I've taken things apart to fix something only to not find anything, put back together and problem gone. Can only assume something was loose or out of adjustment and putting back together corrected it. Lets hope.

Just had a thought. What if the noise isn't even in the engine but inside the transmission? I mean think about it. It only happens under load and when the load is removed either by letting off the throttle or clutching the truck this takes the "load" off the transmission right at that moment.Although that doesn't explain how the noise sorta goes away with applying more throttle. How in the world would I prove its the trans and not inside the engine? I understand we are using the rear brakes in conjunction with the trans to load down the engine to test for the noise.  I mean is this even possible that a transmission shift and work properly 99% of the time and then mess up when a heavy load is applied? I would think the tolerances of the gears and such in the trans wouldn't allow this? Like it would be making the noise all the time and then get louder with applied power from the engine. But then again I'm no transmission mechanic. I'm just starting to wonder if that noise is traveling up the input shaft and causing the clanking noise to "sound" like it's coming from the back of the engine.

Thx

Ray

Edited January 10, 2023 by raythomas

[datzenmike]

Remember during the load test with the brake on that there are no moving parts in the transmission. It's in gear and solidly connected to the stationery rear wheels. Only the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning, the clutch disc and transmission are still, but under load.

[raythomas]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

Remember during the load test with the brake on that there are no moving parts in the transmission. It's in gear and solidly connected to the stationery rear wheels. Only the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning, the clutch disc and transmission are still, but under load.

Gotcha. Had a brain fart for a moment there. I apologize but you fellows have no idea how I've thought and poured over this truck both with my hands and in my mind for several quite some time. I hate to sound like a smart arse but I really hate for something mechanical to beat me. I appreciate all the help. Thanks guys.

Thx

Ray

[datzenmike]

There is always a reason for something mechanical be it noise and/or failure. Electrical? forget it, you can't see electricity or it's failure points only the results. 

[paradime]

Curious, did you get everything back together and drive the truck to see if anything changed?

[raythomas]

2 hours ago, paradime said:

Curious, did you get everything back together and drive the truck to see if anything changed?

No Sir, not yet. Just started putting the trans back in tonight after work. And holy freaking moly, nobody told me it was gonna be like 10 times harder to get back in than it was to get out! I basically had to roll the trans over on my stomach with me flat of my back and wrestle it back into the cross members and into the clutch unit. I finally got it back in and got a few bolts screwed in to hold it until thursday night when I work on it again. And I'm betting I'll be "feeling" this install for a few days to come, or at least my back and shoulders will. Will update more progress later. Thanks all

Thx

Ray

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

If the trans fought you, hopefully you got it installed without any hang-ups. If it doesn't slide onto the back of the motor with ease, something isn't right.

[raythomas]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:04 AM, datzenmike said:

Remember during the load test with the brake on that there are no moving parts in the transmission. It's in gear and solidly connected to the stationery rear wheels. Only the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning, the clutch disc and transmission are still, but under load.

I've been thinking about what you said. With the e-brake on when trying to put the trans in a load I understand the rear end and trans are basically "locked" together, but is it any way that when the clutch is being released that the trans input shaft might be trying to spin? And maybe its something in the front side of the transmission making the noise? That might explain why when we did this test before I could "feel" the knocking in the bell housing? Just a thought. And I know little to nothing about manual transmissions so pardon me if this is a totally stupid question or theory.

Thx

Ray