Silky's clutch - Finally fixed

[LenRobertson]

Thanks for the tips on the MC LenRobertson (whose true identity remains unknown).  I am able to get the proper free play on the MC by adjusting the pedal stopper, which then translates to a longer throw of the clutch pedal.  Now, everyone is probably thinking that a longer throw of the pedal would be great, right?  I'm kind of thinking that maybe the pedal is too far out?  Is that possible?  Am I pushing the rod into the cylinder too deep (I don't know any other way of saying that without it sounding dirty)?

 

I think I understand what you are thinking here, and you may be right. It seems if the rod is going into the MC too far, there would be a point before the pedal reached the floor where the clutch would work properly. You might try slipping different thickness blocks between the floorboard and the clutch pedal and see if there is a spot above the floor where the clutch works. I just don't know if there is a sort of "too far" point in a MC. .

 

Did you ever find any diameters cast into the cylinder body on any of your MC or slaves? I'm still don't know if the diameter matters or not, but again, it seems something is different about one or both of your replacement cylinders. Of course is is possible something internal went wrong with the clutch at the same time as the hydraulics went dry. But I'm still betting on not enough travel of the slave rod. I just don't know why not.

 

I remember getting pretty frustrated when I was fighting my clutch hydraulics. I think I was good and mad when I took the saw to my brand new $32 MC. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have done it. I'm looking forward to your post where you have found the answer.

 

Len

[Silky_Johnson]

Thanks for the input Len.  And I'm still betting on hydraulics too.  It just makes sense.  I received my new Exedy/Daiken MC and slave today, and drumroll please.....

 

 

 

 

They're both made in Taiwan.  Big thumbs down, but oh well.  The Daiken master looks a little different than the other Taiwan master though?  I already cut down the rod on the new master to match the length of my old master.  I ended up taking off about 3/4", and it's still 1/4" longer than the old master.

 

The master had 5/8 stamped on the outside, so that's a no-brainer on the bore size.  All three of my slaves have nothing stamped on them but AS-03.  Rock Auto shows the slaves for 510s as all 3/4 bore, so I'm betting that's what they all are.  Saturday will be my work day for trying out all my new new hydraulics.  I'll report back, and maybe even with some oics if I'm not too frustrated.

[hobbes_the_cat]

It sounds hydraulic to me as well that is my first guess, but I have seen clutch forks get cracks that allow them to flex. It would be weird for it to crack right after re-filling and bleeding the system but stranger things have happened. I don't know if it would work but maybe try moving the fork with your hand or a bar and see if something feels like its flexing...

[Silky_Johnson]

It sounds hydraulic to me as well that is my first guess, but I have seen clutch forks get cracks that allow them to flex. It would be weird for it to crack right after re-filling and bleeding the system but stranger things have happened. I don't know if it would work but maybe try moving the fork with your hand or a bar and see if something feels like its flexing...

 

I have thought about this, and it makes sense.  What would be weird would be for the clutch fork to crack/bend/whatever at the same time that the fluid went dry on me.  I'll do a clutch fork inspection if the problem persists after Saturday.

 

I suppose I should add that I recall something "popping" when the clutch went out.  I was pulling into our driveway (where it continues to sit), and the clutch made a slight "pop" sound, which I probably more felt in my foot than actually heard.  At that time, the shifting became noticeably harder, so I peeped under the hood and found the fluid had gone dry.  I just assumed that the clutch "popping" meant either the master or slave had popped.  Maybe not?  Perhaps I just had a slow fluid leak that was going dry at the same time that something else popped?

[Laecaon]

How about the adjustment on the slave rod? Is your threaded or just a pusher. Mine is threaded, with a jam nut. I remember the first time I drove my car, I noticed it would try to take off with the peddle all the pushed in, so then I adjusted it, and then it would slip all the way out. Then I found the sweet spot.

 

My friend bought a new slave for his Z and it came with a push rod, but his old one was threaded. We used the threaded rod for more adjustment.

 

My clutch pedal, has no return spring, is adjusted to be at the same height as the brake (for visual reasons...) and it still wont go to the floor. I dont think there is an issue with bottoming out the MC.

[nerdistmonk]

This might be a dumb question but that vehicle wouldnt happen to have a clutch damper on it would it? if it does maybe thats your issue? (i removed mine since i didnt like the mushy clutch my truck had using a 10mm brake union)

 

Again idk if yours has one just throwing it out there for consideration. the 510 maybe so old they didnt use those yet, so just guessing.

[musicman]

Silky- are you any closer to solution?

Would pulling engine &trans be time to replace 4 with a 5 speed? Clutch anomaly sounds like it has nothing to do with gear-box though.

Is it time yet for another set of Ratsun eyes?

I'm betting you're going to find a precise fix as you've eliminated many variables.

But then again I'm just a musicman guy.

[Silky_Johnson]

I have messed around quite a bit with the slave adjustment.  More play simply equals less throw of the clutch, and less play simply equals more throwout.  Either way, I can't get it to throw out completely no matter how close I adjust the slave at this point.

 

I'll be honest, I had to google clutch damper after reading nerdistmonk's post.  510s don't have clutch dampers, at least mine doesn't.  Good thought though.  I appreciate the consideration.

 

Musicman (dad), I may or may not be closer after trying some new new hydraulic components tomorrow?  We'll see.  If I am no closer on the project tomorrow, then it's time to pull the engine and transmission to inspect the clutch.  I already have the early zx 5-speed, and I think the transmission is great other than having a short overdrive.  If I end up pulling the engine out, I am expecting to find a cracked clutch fork, or maybe some broken fingers on the pressure plate or something.  We shall see, and at least I still have a plan of attack.

[Silky_Johnson]

New Taiwanese Daiken brand hydraulics went in today.  I bled the system and got the clutch to feel really good.  Still no dice.  I trimmed the new master pushrod down to the size of the old rod.  I have the appropriate amount of play at the master and the adjustable slave.  Everything is hunky dory, but I still can't shift.  I checked the fluid in the transmission, and it's good.  Engine and tranny are coming out at my earliest convenience.  There's gotta be something wrong with the pressure plate, throwout bearing, or the clutch fork...

[Silky_Johnson]

I was putting off pulling the engine because I don't really haver time for this kind of thing.  In fact, I was dreading it, but...

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like I've got a few bent fingers on my pressure plate.  What does this mean?  I know exactly what was wrong with my clutch, and I know how to fix my car again!  This Datto will be back on the road in no time!  The throwout bearing was totally fine, and the clutch fork is good too.  My plan of attack is to get a roadster pressure plate directly from Nissan, and since I have it all open, I'm going to replace the Sachs throwout bearing with a genuine Nissan bearing.  Why not?  If anyone else has suggestions, let me know.  I have all the 200mm 510 clutch setup.  Ratsun members get a 20% discount at Gladstone Nissan.  They know me pretty well over there.

 

While I'm at it, I have plans to replace the oil pan gasket, rear main cap side seals, reverse switch on the transmission, and rear main transmission seal.  I'm hoping to take care of some oil leaks.  I was checking out the U-joints on the drive shaft, and they need to be replaced as well.  It's all good stuff, and I already have the old U-joints out.  

 

In addition, I discovered one of my Mikunis was running rich enough to foul plugs, and I have no idea why.  Visually everything checks out, so the Mikunis are coming out so I can get a reliable driver while I'm going to law school.  A Weber 38 Outlaw is going in, and I'm going to end up with a similar setup to KlassicMotion.  http://community.ratsun.net/topic/56764-i-love-my-weber-38-dges-heres-my-38-dges-install/  I even have a cam ready to go in at the same time as the 38.

 

Here's my car as it sits.  Kinda sad.

 

 

 

While I've got everything out, I want to clean up the wiring and maybe relocate the fuse box to the glove box area?  At any rate, I really need to get the wiring situation under control.  This should have all been posted in my build thread, but...  oh well.

[Silky_Johnson]

Here's an unrelated teaser oic.

 

[LenRobertson]

Great you found the problem! Too bad you had to do such a teardown to get to it.  Do you know which throwout bearing sleeve you need to run with the roadster pressure plate? I don't think I've ever seen anywhere which sleeve is needed. I suppose the roadster PP is the same height as one of the other Datsun PPs, but I've never seen the roadster height spec. It is probably one of those things everyone knows but me.

 

Len

[Silky_Johnson]

All roadster and 510 clutch components measure out the same.  It's a well-known swap to swap out the 510 pressure plate with the roadster pressure plate.  It's all the same but you increase the clamping force dramatically by using the roadster pressure plate.  To answer your question, you just use the 510 throwout sleeve.

 

When I rebuilt the L20B last year, I updated all clutch components EXCEPT for the pressure plate, because I found out it was a roadster pressure plate.  I figured I would leave it because it was an upgrade from the 510 stuff.  WRONG! It failed on me as the only non-updated part.  Oh well, this gives me a good excuse to take care of some leaky oil issues.

[musicman]

I'm impressed how fast you got back into the clutch. I want to follow your work and see lots of oics of your build progress; you're doing well man.  I am looking forward to the next ride with you on 99 and beyond.  I sense your wave of renewed enthusiasm!

[musicman]

What's the latest on reassembly?

[Silky_Johnson]

Alright.  At the request of my dad, I bring some photos of the progress.  I've been pretty busy, so getting photos loaded up on Ratsun hasn't been a huge priority.

 

Anyway, I got this!  (lousy picture)

 

 

 

For those of you in the know, that's a genuine Nissan Roadster pressure plate -- higher clamping force, no other modifications.  And it came in this cool paper.

 

 

Since I had to pull the engine and tranny, I wanted to take care of some other things that have been bothering me.  This should have gone in my build thread, but... oh well!

 

This isn't a very exhaustive list, but it helped me to not forget some things I had planned.

 

 

After I pulled the engine, I grabbed the driveshaft and checked for play.  Would you like to guess what I found?  Play.  As it turns out, this was the culprit.

 

 

I bought new Moog U-joints and they went in faster than I expected.

 

 

 

I have been more than fairly "unsatisfied" with the wiring situation in the engine bay since I have owned the car.  Here's an example of what I am talking about.

 

 

The improvements are not drastic, and I'm not quite finished yet, but here are some photos of the progress.

 

 

 

 

I have rerouted some of the wires, and I am in the process of relocating the fusebox to the glove compartment along with a couple of relays.  I'll post on those when I'm done with the relocation.

 

Next post will be on the actual clutch work.

[Silky_Johnson]

You may have seen on my "list of things to do" about getting a new shifter.  Here's what mine looks like, worn out bushings and all.

 

 

I'd rather get just a classier looking z shifter or something.  I put up a wanted ad in the classified section, but didn't get any takers.

 

Anyway, here's a tranny oic.

 

 

And now on to the pertinent stuff.  Before I installed the new clutch, I wanted to take care of some oil leak issues in the oil pan/rear main cap.  I installed new seals in those parts, torqued all bolts to factory specs, and then moved on to the clutch install.  I put the flywheel back on

 

 

Low and behold, the flywheel and I share the same name!  What a coincidence.  The flywheel bots get torqued down to 100 or so pounds -- Gutenteit (good and tight).  I used a torque wrench.  Eventually that awful valve cover will get cleaned or replaced.  It's on a long list of things to do.

 

Next up is centering the clutch disc on the flywheel.  I used the old clutch disc because it says "Made in Japan" on it, it's only a year old, has no signs of visible wear, and wasn't the source of the problem.

 

 

And then I bolted up the Roadster pressure plate.

 

 

 

Looks good.

 

Given my recent clutch trouble, I decided to also replace the throwout bearing while I had everything open.  I never felt real good about using a Sachs brand throwout bearing.  Extra insurance against having to do this any time soon was to put in a genuine Nissan throwout bearing.  I went with DatzenMike's advice and packed the bearing with grease even though it is technically a sealed bearing.  What could it hurt?  And I definitely don't want to have a clutch go bad on me for not being thorough.

 

 

The transmission is now attached to the engine again.  The input shaft stabbed into the flywheel/pilot bushing easy enough.  I'm taking the day off tomorrow to finish the big jobs and drop the engine back in the car.  Before I do that I'm going to give the engine bay a bath and close up whatever loose ends I need to take care of.  Unfortunately, I won't be able to do a driving test before the weekend though.  I'm converting my dual sidedraft setup back to downdraft, and that's going to take a little time on top of the clutch work and engine install.

 

More updates to come.

[musicman]

Great progress; you've got a lot on your To-Do list. Your wiring is looking cleaner. I'm pretty impressed with your process! Thanks for the oiks, The dad.

[Silky_Johnson]

Another photo dump.  I got some stuff done yesterday.

 

First off, I successfully relocated my fuse box to the glove compartment.

 

 

Now all I need to do is get one of those replacement clip things from Toyota/Lexus to keep the lid down.  Lexus part No. 90467-08119.

 

I also mounted a couple of relays inside, and they're mostly hidden from view.

 

 

And here's a picture of the engine bay (pre bath).

 

 

When I was getting things cleaned up, my wife came out and snapped some oics of me working.  My car and I both look like a mess.  I don't wear the bandana to be cool - it's a necessity in this kind of heat, and I need to be able to see without sweat running into my eyes.

 

 

 

And here's the pooch that helps out by keeping me company when I'm working.

 

 

I got the engine and transmission back together.  My garage floor is pretty well caked in nasty stuff, but what would you expect from a 1920's home?

 

 

Here's the engine going back in.  Someone's probably going to get on my case about where I anchored the chain, but it made it in without any catastrophes.

 

 

 

The tough stuff is over.  Now I get to do the fun stuff.  I may even get a test drive in within the next week or so?

 

 

[musicman]

Hey son, Looking good!  I'm smiling.  :thumbup:  Watching your goon-build come together intrigues me for its mechanical 'artiness,' its attraction, and the enjoyment of seeing decades old Japanese engineering all fitting together as one machine. Your fuse box and relays turned out neat inside passenger compartment.  It is all beginning to look more simple.

 

Yesterday was a mighty warm 90- degree day for dropping in an engine.  It sounds as though the engine may have went back in, solo, easier this time.  

 

I finished cleaning and reorganizing my garage/shop/bench yesterday--all ready for the next 720 time.

musicman

[Silky_Johnson]

Got everything buttoned up last night.  The L20B is running, and the clutch works and feels amazing!  I haven't done a test drive yet, but the new Weber 38 feels awesome thus far.  Throttle response is way better, and for the first time since I've owned this 510, I can mash down the throttle as hard and fast as I want without it bogging down on me.

 

Oics to come...  I still need to figure out some throttle linkage issues.  I think my throttle cable is binding.  In addition, I lost the little E-clip that attaches to the rod that attaches the shifter to the tranny.  I'll buy a few more of those while I'm at it.  Once that all gets taken care of, I'll give my car a bath and do some long-overdue driving around.

[banzai510(hainz)]

Airforce?

I worked f15s @ Bitburg Germany.

 

I love the weber 38/38 just port out he stock manifolds top and the runners should be fine. Plus EZ to maintain.

 

where you get the Roadster P/P from. Somebody said they NLA form Nissapanparts.cc or was this you?

 

if they are out next best is go 225 alum flywheel with stage 1 daiken(use 620 T/O collar/bearing set up)

[Silky_Johnson]

I would like to have been in the Air Force, but my life didn't take that route.  I have volunteered the past two years down at Travis Air Force Base in Fairfield, California, with their chapel program.  As a souvenir, they gave me that shirt.  I get more respect when I wear it to auto parts stores...

 

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the lower maintenance of the 38.  I had fun porting out the carb interface on the manifold.  I had never used a rotary file before, and it worked great.

 

On the pressure plate, I don't remember saying they were NLA?  I have pretty much given up on nissanparts.cc though.  Seems like they're never able to get anything.  I sat around waiting for lash pads from nissanparts.cc for the better part of a month and a half once, and then I never got them anyway.  I always go down to Gladstone Nissan in the PDX area, and they can get me whatever I want, and usually they're pretty fast.  I ordered the Roadster PP and picked it up three days later for $120ish?  I also ended up ordering Nismo lash pads through the dealership and they got them for me without any hiccups.  I recently inquired about getting a new downpipe/exhaust collector/Y-pipe the other day, and while they said there weren't any in the U.S., they can order one for me from Japan.

[Silky_Johnson]

I know quite a few guys now down at Travis, and they're primarily all C-5 mechanics.

[Silky_Johnson]

BTW, is this your car Hainz?

 

 

I had never seen a "full body shot" before.

 

EDIT:

 

On second look, I don't think so.  I just saw the Banzai on it.