VG30E turbo build

[510six]

I couldn't tell from the pics, are your injectors "O" ring style or are they the Bosch 036 hose style?

[inline4]

damn that looks like a butt load of relays on the passenger front strut. what is that?

[cjr198car]

510six,

 

The injectors are a Bosch 036 style (barb fitting). This is a great tech page with regards to VG injector upgrades:

 

http://www.redz31.net/pages/fuel/fuel.injectors.html

 

Inline4,

 

You answered your own question! That is every relay and fuse in my car. I might paint the engine bay black (like a wrinkle, or bedliner texture. Ill still keep the top of the strut tower red.), to A, make the bay a bit more durable to chemicals like brake fluid and what not and B, to help the electronics blend in (black on black).

 

-Colton

[510six]

510six,

 

The injectors are a Bosch 036 style (barb fitting). This is a great tech page with regards to VG injector upgrades:

 

http://www.redz31.ne....injectors.html

 

 

I had 036 injectors on my first 3 liter stroker, the motor made 275rwh @12psi with a small T4 turbo. I look forward to seeing your car max out the 036 units (325-350 rwh).

[cjr198car]

510six,

 

What kind of plugs and gap were you running on your 3 liter?

 

-Colton

[510six]

R5671A-8 NGK gapped to .32 using a Ford SHO coilpack with an AEM twinfire CDI. The E85 takes a colder plug and more spark energy to ignite than gasoline. For your setup a set of the same NGK plugs in the 7 heat range would work fine I would gap my plugs down to about .30-.32 , with the nitrous the R5671A-8 NGK's are what I would use gapped down to .28-.26 with a CDI unit you can get away with a little less plug gap due to the increased power at the plug. IMO with a large turbo and N20 using a CDI ignition is not a bad idea.

 

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/AEM/Ignition/Ignition_Systems/Twin_Fire/4449

[cjr198car]

Thats the exact info I needed. Thanks!

[Datsunscom]

I made 220whp and 225wtq with 7-7.5 psi @ 4900-5000rpm before running out of fuel.

 

Chart?

[cjr198car]

Mustang dyno...

 

(this is the only graph I have from the dyno the figures on this graph show 217whp and 225wtq)

 

Ill have boost a bit earlier with an exhaust (im only running a few feet of downpipe right now) and we plan on getting more aggressive with the timing (we are overly conservative since I dont have enough injector to rev over 5000rpm!). I believe with more aggressive timing and tuning I can easily put down 230whp and 230wtq @ 7psi. Im hoping to be around 300whp and 300wtq at 14-15psi.

 

-Colton

[inline4]

510six,

 

The injectors are a Bosch 036 style (barb fitting). This is a great tech page with regards to VG injector upgrades:

 

http://www.redz31.net/pages/fuel/fuel.injectors.html

 

Inline4,

 

You answered your own question! That is every relay and fuse in my car. I might paint the engine bay black (like a wrinkle, or bedliner texture. Ill still keep the top of the strut tower red.), to A, make the bay a bit more durable to chemicals like brake fluid and what not and B, to help the electronics blend in (black on black).

 

-Colton

why not stash the relays in a better spot? :o

[I'm BLUE]

why not stash the relays in a better spot? :o

 

Like where ? :huh:

[inline4]

Like where ? :huh:

backside of the firewall? under the dashboard? a custom box in the place of the gauge cluster (since the gauge cluster doesn't work anyhow)

 

I dunno. to each their own, I've been battling messy wiring for a year :o

[cjr198car]

I guess I could, but Im fine with the placement for now. The wiring is pro. Every fuse and relay is labeled and I can trouble shoot the car faster with everything neatly exposed. I guess its more of an all business approach.

 

The gauge cluster and dash have a ton of working gauges that take up quite a bit of space. Under the dash will be a pain to get to. The firewall is not going to happen due to space.

[Datsunscom]

Mustang dyno...

 

(this is the only graph I have from the dyno the figures on this graph show 217whp and 225wtq)

 

I believe with more aggressive timing and tuning I can easily put down 230whp and 230wtq @ 7psi. Im hoping to be around 300whp and 300wtq at 14-15psi.

 

 

Hard to see the RPM numbers on the bottom of your chart :-(, but thanks for posting it! Here's a dyno plot of a VG30ET in a 510 with euro cams, 3in exhaust but stock T3 turbo

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/engines/vg30et_dyno_savage_510.gif . Fully spooled by 3100RPM but "only" at 250WHP at 15PSI. You can sure see where the turbo starts to make boost though. I also like the fact that Gary started his dyno pull from below 2000RPM so you can get a great view of off-boost power.

[cjr198car]

I was getting full spool to 7psi at about 3800-4000 rpm (this will be significantly better with an exhaust!). The pull on this graph is to 5200 rpm, but you can see the drop off in boost (yellow line) at about 4900 (this is where it started to go lean so we got out of the gas).

 

The cams I have come into play around 5000rpm so this graph is dissapointing (just as everthing starts coming together we had to get out of the gas).

 

Ill make sure to have pulls from 2000 rpm tomorrow for comparison sake.

 

The billet wheeled turbo I have is not really efficient at 7 psi once we crank up the boost the turbo/engine/cams should really come together and make some really nice power.

 

-Colton

[inline4]

I guess I could, but Im fine with the placement for now. The wiring is pro. Every fuse and relay is labeled and I can trouble shoot the car faster with everything neatly exposed. I guess its more of an all business approach.

 

The gauge cluster and dash have a ton of working gauges that take up quite a bit of space. Under the dash will be a pain to get to. The firewall is not going to happen due to space.

you have a point there. when stuff gets wrapped up in tape its hard to remember which is which :)

[Datsunscom]

I was getting full spool to 7psi at about 3800-4000 rpm (this will be significantly better with an exhaust!).

 

-Colton

 

That's about 1000RPM later than it should be yeah, what diameter is your downpipe/exhaust? A too-small downpipe/exhaust system will kill turbo performance. That 270/.465 cam, is that a turbo grind or is it intended for a non-turbo VG? I ask simply because what good for non-turbo engines is sometimes opposite if what's good for a turbo engine - camshafts are probably the biggest example.

[cjr198car]

I have a 58/57 billet wheeled turbo with .82 a/r (I highly doubt people are achieving full spool by 2800-3000 rpm on the turbo I have). I think it should spool by 3500rpm in my opinion, so Im not way off right now. The downpipe is 3 inch. I dont have an exhaust. On my previous turbo build (sr20det with big cams and an sc61 I lost 500-600rpm of spool time when I removed my 3 inch exhaust...I sold the car and had to remove the exhaust for shipping so I remember the "A" to "B" comparision). The turbo I have will benefit with more back pressure and more boost than I currently have.

 

The common aggressive turbo grind for this engine would be a 260 to 265 with 445 to 450 of lift. I obviously have a slightly more aggressive cam than that, but I disclosed to Ron @ Isky Racing that I will still spray nitrous every once in awhile so any of the low end I may lose can be made up with a little laughing gas and the gains on the top end will be exponential...in theory!

 

Either way I like the way the car delivers power as it stits with 220whp (I can spin the tires with minimal effort) and the sound at idle more than makes up for the loss of torque when Im not on the bottle.

 

My car is a hot rod...not a purpose built race car.

 

Edit:

 

(I just read my post!) Im not trying to come off as all knowing (in fact Im more of a trial/error type of person, but I just want to make sure you understand my build). I could have picked a smaller turbo or less aggressive cams, but at the end of the day I like the combination I have and I think its cool.

[510six]

I personally like the big cam large turbo motor, the 3 liter makes enough low end torque to pull a 510 around quite nicely in off boost mode and once the big turbo spools on a cammed motor it should but a big smile on your face. The nitrous on a turbo motor is kind of like 2+2=5 the spool is immediate and the horsepower gains can get pretty crazy in a hurry. This car could be stupid fast if it can get traction :D

[Datsunscom]

I personally like the big cam large turbo motor, the 3 liter makes enough low end torque to pull a 510 around quite nicely in off boost mode and once the big turbo spools on a cammed motor it should but a big smile on your face. The nitrous on a turbo motor is kind of like 2+2=5 the spool is immediate and the horsepower gains can get pretty crazy in a hurry. This car could be stupid fast if it can get traction :D

 

Sure, but if you have useful boost below 3000RPM (say, highway speed in 5th) AND good high RPM power then why turn that down? A turbo that doesn't kick in until 4000RPM should make *huge* numbers, and by huge I mean 500whp+. Also what good lower RPM torque usually means is decent highway MPG - 28+MPG on the highway, something not easily achievable if cylinder breathing isn't optimal at lower RPM's as well. If I can have 300whp up top AND a crapload of torque down low to me it's the best of both worlds and seperates the VG30 turbos from the SR20 turbos (which don't make much torque off-bosst regardless what you do).

 

I'm also far from all knowing, I just try to have my cake and east it too :-)

[Datsunscom]

On my previous turbo build (sr20det with big cams and an sc61 I lost 500-600rpm of spool time when I removed my 3 inch exhaust...I sold the car and had to remove the exhaust for shipping so I remember the "A" to "B" comparision). The turbo I have will benefit with more back pressure and more boost than I currently have.

 

Interesting result on the SR20DET....that actually makes no sense from an engineering standpoint, because from the turbo rearward you want as little restriction as possible. Think of it this way - what makes the turbine side of the turbo spin is the pressure difference between the cylinder head and the downpipe. Air flows from high pressure (cyl head) to low pressure (downpipe) side, so the greater the pressure differential the faster air flows from one side to anotherso it's quite curious the SR responded that way.

 

SC61 turbo...yikes, what kind of power did that combination make, something like 400whp?

[510six]

Sure, but if you have useful boost below 3000RPM (say, highway speed in 5th) AND good high RPM power then why turn that down? A turbo that doesn't kick in until 4000RPM should make *huge* numbers, and by huge I mean 500whp+. Also what good lower RPM torque usually means is decent highway MPG - 28+MPG on the highway, something not easily achievable if cylinder breathing isn't optimal at lower RPM's as well. If I can have 300whp up top AND a crapload of torque down low to me it's the best of both worlds and seperates the VG30 turbos from the SR20 turbos (which don't make much torque off-bosst regardless what you do).

 

I'm also far from all knowing, I just try to have my cake and east it too :-)

 

 

 

 

Kind of like the turbo in the dyno chart? Seriously, the plain bearing T67 on my L series 3 liter spooled before 4K rpm. Even with the larger .82 exhaust housing the VG30 should spool by 3500 rpm or so (without know the exact specs of the exhaust wheel, I can't make a more educated "guess"). I do know that a shot of nitrous spooling a large turbo is very entertaining.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[fo0manchu]

Wow, look at that spike in power when boost kicks in. That looks fun and scary and the same time.

[cjr198car]

My SR had just about 400whp and the sc61 was the "hot" turbo at that time and large for the SR in 2004. Im not an engineer, but I think having a turbo that is slightly larger than needed (like my SR example) needs a certain amount of backpressure to help spin the exhaust wheel faster. Here is another explanantion of my experience. I put the important text in bold.

 

"There is a thin line between good/bad backpressure.... Initially right after the turbo you want the least back pressure possible this will increase spool time and let me explain. What shovels air into your engine is a turbine wheel which does nothing more than suck air in at the compressor housing and shovel it through some pipes and crams it into the engine. What decided how quickly that turbine spins depends however on the exhaust turbine which is spun by exiting exhaust gasses out of the engine. By having a free flowing exhaust it allows the exhaust housing to move in its rotation more efficiently. If you have any kind of restriction close to this wheel it will take away from the efficiency of the whole process which will take away from spool time.( Imagine a circulating door and how easy it is to walk through on a nice day then try to go through it on a windy day and the resistance you get while trying to push it.)This is why a lot of people get boost spikes when going to aftermarket exhaust because of the fact the turbo is capable of reaching its boost level so much easier becasue of the increased efficiency that it becomes hard to control with stock size wastegate ports. Thats why a lot of people sometime run like a 4-5 inch bellmouth housing maybe not on Audi's specifically but I know for a fact in many performance applications then tapper down not to create back pressure but to reduce exhaust noise... The only reason N/A cars need backpressure in their exhaust is to keep compression high in the motor we, turbo vehicles already have this back pressure created with the turbo since the pressure is built up between the motor and turbo its not needed after the turbo... There are however some other determining factors like turbo size compared to volume... The only reason you would need back pressure in an exhaust would be if you had a turbo that was to large for the amount of volume the engine can possibly produce in which case you need the back pressure to help keep pressure on the turbine wheel to make the most of the amount of air which is trying to rotate the assembly think of it like this ( if you had to fill a box full of air before the top would pop off but the air is exiting faster than its capable of entering) which is the reason for twin scroll housings they help focus air over an area and make what air you do have more efficient"

 

Long story short an undersized or perfectly matched turbo will benefit from an open downpipe (little to no back pressure). Guys like me that like the idea of ridiculous HP potential will get a larger turbo and play the game of backpressure balance...or just spray nitrous at it!

 

On another not the injectors are in, but I ran out of time to retune! Hopefully Ill have it done next week :)

[cjr198car]

I could also decrease my spool time by having the heads ported and polished. This will create more exhaust flow spooling the .82 a/r faster...I might conisder doing this If Im not satisfied with a full exhaust and more boost.