Distributor/Timing woes...

[banzai510(hainz)]

olddatsuns.com had my vid in the tech section

 

If a motor is rebuilt I assume there is bill of sale of parts? ect.......

 

If you turn the crank the oil spindal should move as it goes to a worm gear/thus turning the dizzy.Your earlier post you said the distributor was fine??????????was slack side guides????

 

If the timming mark on crank and on head/cam as datzenmike mention is OK then the chain alignment is correct is OK if the mark line up.Meaning valve opening /piston timming is correct.

Means the KEY is OK for the sprocket

 

Now if the oilpump spindal is not moving or loose then it would cause the distributor to give a eleltrical timming ERROR. Yes I guess the key could be stripped causing the worm gear not to turn correctly. I heard of a crank wear the key part was damaged and could not hold a key(new crank)

Have you pulled the dizzy and looked underneath to see if the base is loose where the roll pin popped/broke

 

I would not buy from Bill as he charges TOO MUCH for stuff that is listed elsewhere cheaper . Like those Trimill headers. He want 225$ or so. Top End Perf has same ones for 150$

[Spades]

olddatsuns.com had my vid in the tech section

 

If a motor is rebuilt I assume there is bill of sale of parts? ect.......

 

If you turn the crank the oil spindal should move as it goes to a worm gear/thus turning the dizzy.Your earlier post you said the distributor was fine??????????was slack side guides????

 

If the timming mark on crank and on head/cam as datzenmike mention is OK then the chain alignment is correct is OK if the mark line up.Meaning valve opening /piston timming is correct.

Means the KEY is OK for the sprocket

 

Now if the oilpump spindal is not moving or loose then it would cause the distributor to give a eleltrical timming ERROR. Yes I guess the key could be stripped causing the worm gear not to turn correctly. I heard of a crank wear the key part was damaged and could not hold a key(new crank)

Have you pulled the dizzy and looked underneath to see if the base is loose where the roll pin popped/broke

 

I would not buy from Bill as he charges TOO MUCH for stuff that is listed elsewhere cheaper . Like those Trimill headers. He want 225$ or so. Top End Perf has same ones for 150$

 

ok, well, the distributor is fine, verified that today. My boss called Jock about it, and he said that there should be some movement between the crank and the rotor, and some play in the chain...but 10 degrees and being able to push the chain in an inch seems a bit excessive to me. Jock claimed there would be some slop, and swore up and down he honed it and re-ringed it and that he himself put the timing chain and cover on. however, one of my co-workers has a snap on boroscope that I used to look inside the cylinders...I have only put a few hundred miles on this motor, and there are pits and vertical wear lines...no crosshatch or hone marks...just wear...

 

I apologize if I an not very clear, I am not the best at typing, and I am so worked up over the whole situation I am not explaining things the best.

[datzenmike]

Use that 'boroscope' to inspect the chain tensioner and guides.

 

I would imagine there will be a small amount of 'slop' if you back the engine up then turn forward before the dizzy moves, but in operation the motor only turns forward so everything is snug and doesn't jump around.

 

Pushing the timing chain in an inch? Can only be done on the slack side so it doesn't really mater if there is some slack there. The motor turns clockwise and pulls down on the chain on the driver's side (tension side) and keeps it tight. The tensioner is only there to help support the slack and keep from flopping around when revved up. As Brian said they will run without them, but noisy and will cause damage. One inch sounds like a lot if the tension side is tight so look ans see if the tensioner has fallen out.

[Spades]

I didn't use the boroscope to check out the tensioner...the guides are in place, not broken, but appear worn. There is some timing chain noise from the front cover, so maybe the tensioner is broken or not functioning. tonight I pulled the car into my boss' shop and left it there until I can find out what is going on...I don't want to risk driving it with that kind of chain slop. The slop is on what should be the tension side. My boss has a partially assembled rebuilt naps Z24, and it doesn't have any noticeable chain slop. On my engine, on both sides of the sprocket, I can push the chain in and out...

 

There is plenty of movement between the crank pulley and the camshaft and distributor. What happened earlier today was the car would lag a bit, as if the timing was retarded, and the next time, you couldn't start it...the timing was so advanced, it would kick back, a couple times it wouldn't even turn over...then the next couple times it was started it fired up normally...either there is significant wear on the parts under the distributor, or the slop was so bad, when I drove it before lunch(when I pulled the valve cover off and found the timing chain issue) the chain was skipping...but maybe I am wrong, but if the chain skipped a tooth, it wouldn't want to fire up at all, not to mention, I wouldn't think it would have skipped backwards then forwards, would it?

 

Either way, I am left with a engine that Jock swears he honed and re-ringed, yet the cylinder walls are pitted and worn(without any hone marks), and I am left with either a worn bottom end, or at the very least, a broken or malfunctioning tensioner.

 

The bad news for me, is that I cant pull the oil pan off in the car, it will hit the cross member...so if there is more going on than a busted tensioner, I have to pull the engine. The other bad news is, I still have a motor that is supposed to be rebuilt...and doesn't look like a damn thing was done to it.

[datzenmike]

The tension side is the left or driver's side. The crank sprocket pulls down on the chain against the resistance of the cam sprocket and should be stiff. There is a long straight guide that runs vertically up and down beside it and just barely touches it. If you can push the chain in an inch on the tension side, then the crank sprocket may be damaged at the woodruff key and be loose. Damage here may also extend to the oil pump/distributor drive worm gear just behind it. This would explain looseness there also.

 

If the tensioner fell out I suppose a piece could find it's way down between the chain and sprocket and jam it up.

[Spades]

The tension side is the left or driver's side. The crank sprocket pulls down on the chain against the resistance of the cam sprocket and should be stiff. There is a long straight guide that runs vertically up and down beside it and just barely touches it. If you can push the chain in an inch on the tension side, then the crank sprocket may be damaged at the woodruff key and be loose. Damage here may also extend to the oil pump/distributor drive worm gear just behind it. This would explain looseness there also.

 

If the tensioner fell out I suppose a piece could find it's way down between the chain and sprocket and jam it up.

 

 

The drivers side has slop in it, that is the side with the straight chain guide. I was kind of hoping/wishing that the chain had just stretched some how and the tensioner had just failed. It doesn't sound like that is very possible at this point. I am not sure what to do, because it sounds like Jock is not going to make any attempt to make this right. I don't have very much $$$ right now, and yesterday I called around and found that while I can get a new crank and bearing and all the needed parts, its about $130...and I would still need to buy the timing set. Also, if they wear is significant, I would need to buy the oil pump and the piece that drives the distributor from the oil pump. To get at anything other than the front cover, I would need to pull the motor...so I am not sure what to do at this point.

 

Whatever I do will cost more $$$ than I have...I see my only two real options at this point. First, to do a compression test and see if the worn and pitted cylinder walls are causing any compression issues, and if compression is good, to yank the motor out and fix whatever it needs. The second option is to buy a different motor, either a rebuilt one, or buy one that I can rebuild myself. I guess no matter what I do, it will cost more money than I have...I guess that's life.

[datzenmike]

Nothing is known for sure until you examine the timing chain/crank sprocket/oil pump drive gear.

[Spades]

Small update. He may not have been telling the truth about honing the cylinders, but I am betting he at least re-ringed it, I did a compression test today, and the numbers look good. Mittchel says over 128 is good, and the compression test showed Cyl 1: 172, Cyl 2: 171, Cyl 3: 161, Cyl 4: 169

 

 

I am waiting for a credit to go through to IMC, and I will pull the radiator and everything else in the way so I can pull the timing cover off. With any luck the crank sprocket is just worn and it needs replaced and a timing chain tensioner or a timing chain kit. I hope it will be something simple, cause if I have to replace the oil pump, ect...I will be pulling the engine out of the car :(

[datzenmike]

The oil pump/ dizzy and water pump have to come off to remove the timing cover anyway. Both oil pump and dizzy are a long way from the crank drive gear and are turned by the drive spindle. There is little chance that either the pump or dizzy are damaged. Possibly the spindle is, but only just possible.

[Spades]

The oil pump/ dizzy and water pump have to come off to remove the timing cover anyway. Both oil pump and dizzy are a long way from the crank drive gear and are turned by the drive spindle. There is little chance that either the pump or dizzy are damaged. Possibly the spindle is, but only just possible.

 

 

does the oil pan have to come all the way off to pull everything? if so I am screwed...I don't think I can fully removed the oil pan with the motor in the car, I think I can prolly only drop the front a couple inches.

[DanielC]

The oil pump on a L motor is external. Crawl under the front bumper, look up at the front of the motor, and you will see a funny looking lump held on with four bolts, that point straight at the distributer. That is your oil pump. Once you loosen the bolts, oil will run out. Be ready for the mess.

Put your motor exactly a top dead center before you do this. Pull the cam cover off. look for the notch in the sprocket to line up on mark behind it. With the engine at this position, the distributer drive should be at the 11:25 position everyboidy talks about.

[Spades]

The oil pump on a L motor is external. Crawl under the front bumper, look up at the front of the motor, and you will see a funny looking lump held on with four bolts, that point straight at the distributer. That is your oil pump. Once you loosen the bolts, oil will run out. Be ready for the mess.

Put your motor exactly a top dead center before you do this. Pull the cam cover off. look for the notch in the sprocket to line up on mark behind it. With the engine at this position, the distributer drive should be at the 11:25 position everyboidy talks about.

 

Thank you sir. Thank you everyone for the help, this is my first Datsun/Nissan, and I know very little about these engines(yet)...hopefully that credit will go through tomorrow so I can tear into the car and find out exactly what is going on behind that timing cover!

[Spades]

can anyone tell me if they have had any experience with OSK or Atsugi brand parts? I have heard that some aftermarket and even some Nissan timing chains for this motor have had problems with abnormal stretching, wear, ect. Those are the brands IMC has in stock, and was wondering if anyone has dealt with those. It looks like I can pick up everything I will need for around $100, provided the oil pump, crank sprocket, and timing chain set is the main problem.

 

I should have time tomorrow after work to tear it apart and see the extent of the wear/damage.

[banzai510(hainz)]

OSK and Atsugi are GREAT parts

 

why you need to drop the oil pan? maybe loosen it(lower) so you can put the front cover back on there easily.

 

 

does the oil pan have to come all the way off to pull everything? if so I am screwed...I don't think I can fully removed the oil pan with the motor in the car, I think I can prolly only drop the front a couple inches.

watch this then youll know

olddatsuns.com has my vid (timming chain install). that should take you thru enough just the head are different.

 

I like the Felpro front cover or headgasket gasket set also.sold thru Schucks/kregon/Checker

[Spades]

OSK and Atsugi are GREAT parts

 

why you need to drop the oil pan? maybe loosen it(lower) so you can put the front cover back on there easily.

 

 

 

I assumed the oil pump was internal, not external. To be honest, I don't know that much about Nissans. I worked for a Ford dealer before moving to the private shop I work at now, and although I am slowly learning, there is much I have to learn about this and other import engines. The good news for me is that I should be able to do everything without pulling the motor (was looking it over while on my lunch break today), and hopefully the crank will be fine, and the reason I have so much slop is from parts that are just old and tired. I will know tonight after work.

 

Thanks again to everyone for all the help! I should have it torn down tonight and should have pics...thanks again!

 

EDIT: the kits I am getting from IMC should have the gaskets I need, if they don't have all the items, I will get any gaskets I need in Felpro from AED or Baxters.

[Spades]

Gather 'round kiddies! It is time for show and tell! I think there may be some slack in the chain, I might be wrong though.

 

 

 

Now, the question is, was he lying about replacing the chain? He lied about the cylinder hone, the head rebuild (he did shave it, it seems, but it doesn't look like anything else was done), oil pump, gaskets, ect... I wonder if he lied about the chain too...

 

Or, did he use a Chinese or Taiwanese chain that stretched out in a few hundred miles?

 

I don't suppose it matters much at this point.

 

I suppose the real loser in it all is myself...I am an idiot for trusting someone, an idiot for not learning enough before looking for one of these engines, and a idiot for paying way too much for a tired old motor that was in a crapbox of a car. Do we have a retard of the month award on Ratsun? I think I have earned it...

[racerx]

Hey why you so hard on yourself..I'm certain that all of us made a "learning" decision at one point or another. Now that I am older, my decisions are base more on thought rather than emotions but that's the key, right? Being older makes you wiser...time that is.

We learn as we go sometimes. Do what you can and move on.

 

Good luck and hope you get it fixed.

[banzai510(hainz)]

I see that the chain is loose.

But when you dial it up to Zero on crank your to keep tension on that right side by turing the crank portion so it pulls the chain down and take out the slack on the right side. then when you get it to zero on crank you look for the timming marks UP on the head/cam.sprocket. Now if you turnd the crank Counter clock wise, Yes you get slack on that the right side.(BUT THIS IS THE WTRONG WAY)

You sure you doing this right? Why I say this is the dimple on the lower sprocket should be down a little more. Look like in the 3 oclock position. should be clockwisew wise a little more.

Did you see my Vid? Its all in there

 

 

Even a taiwan chain is not going to wear out that bad.I prefer the Jap chains as they have the timming Brite link on them . Best for a new person to set up motor intially.

 

I would Dial it up to TDC. See the head timming marks. If GOOD I then would go to the slack side guide and adjust the excess chain slop out at the top. Slac side guide should have a oblong 8 holes to push the the slack side guide IN more. also make sure tensioner is IN all the way, then lock it down. You can put the timming cover LOOSELY back on spin motor around(put crank pully ON) and see it timming marks are all correct.

 

Now if BAD

means you dial lower Crank it up to Zero(might have to put timming cover back on) . and the head/cam/sprocket timming mark is OFF. Chain could be off a link.

[Spades]

 

You sure you doing this right?

 

 

I haven't touched or tried re-installing the chain yet...I just pulled everything apart last night. I bought this engine under the premise that it was rebuilt and I wouldn't have to do anything to it. The motor was "rebuilt" by Jock over at Bill's datsun. The only thing I have done so far is inspect the damn thing to try and find out why I couldn't ever get the motor timed right.

 

I know it is set up wrong, and I know the chain is stretched. I will be buying a new timing set and putting everything back the right way.

 

The point of the pictures was to show how the engine sits as it is now, I know it isn't right, but what I am attempting to show is how the motor is now...the "rebuilt" motor in a beat to hell 80 datsun 510 that I paid $1400 for.

 

P.S. I did watch your video, and it helped me learn more about this motor, even though the head is different, the L16 you tore apart is pretty much identical to my naps z20s from the cylinder head down. Thank you for posting the video, it was very helpful!

 

 

P.S. the chain looks new, hardly any wear on it...same with the cam sprocket...it looks newer and aftermarket, it isn't a nissan gear. I don't think a chain could stretch that much, nor has anyone that has looked at it. What are the odds he maybe put a Ll6 chain on it? There is more slop than wear or stretching could account for...

[banzai510(hainz)]

be honest the chain is most likely good.

 

just take the crank and get the slop of of the right side and see where the head.cam marks are. It could just be off a 1 link making it look like a stretched timming chain. thn youll know if it was assembled wrong.

[Spades]

be honest the chain is most likely good.

 

just take the crank and get the slop of of the right side and see where the head.cam marks are. It could just be off a 1 link making it look like a stretched timming chain. thn youll know if it was assembled wrong.

 

nah, if I rotate the engine to pick up the slack and line the crank up(the tensioner extends well over 1" out), the cam lines up to the casting mark that mike mentioned earlier in this thread. I am wondering about the chain to be honest. The engine ran well some of the time, it was never quite right and I could never get it dialed in...the problem has always been there, and it looks like since the chain and cam gear are newer, that he replaced it with a chain that was too long and belonged on a different motor...either that or with a Chinese special...but even then, that would be some major stretching...

[hang_510]

when i pulled my L20 that had horrible TC noise, the tensioner was GONE and only had a bit more slack than that. ran for many miles like that too.

 

something else is wrong there.

an L16 chain is shorter!

 

 

:angry: id be back at the shop and having Jock do another rebuild! or refund the $$ for you to finish it.

[dimedriver]

Have you adjusted the slack side tensioner?

That should take up some slack but if there is still a lot; Its probably a Z24 chain. The Z20 and Z22 are the same deck/block height. The Z24 was about a 3/4 inch taller. This would make the chain nearly 2 inches too long. I bet your chain has about 3 or four extra links in it. Rock auto has the chain listed as 102 links on the 81 200sx Z20E. and 106 for the 86' 720 pickup Z24i.

 

Heck maybe the parts counter gave the last guy the wrong chain.

 

 

-Dime

[banzai510(hainz)]

if I rotate the engine to pick up the slack and line the crank up(the tensioner extends well over 1" out),

 

loosen slack side guide bolts. Push tensioner in with hand and push slack side guide in to take up slack.

 

its possible to have a wrong chain I guess. Out a inch is abit much

[Spades]

ok, so, I finished tearing it apart today. The chain on it seems newer, but it is a bit worn/lengthened...the main problem was he indeed was off a tooth...perhaps two.

 

When I put my new Japanese timing kit on, it is now snug, and everything is in the right position. It looks like a combination of inferior parts, and perhaps a hasty job or not paying attention to where the crank sprocket was in relation to the cam gear/chain. The crank sprocket was very pointed and sharp, so it appears to be the original sprocket, with a aftermarket cam gear and chain...the cam sprocket is definitely aftermarket, its missing some of the stamped numbers.

 

So, now I have everything lined up properly, and my Japanese timing chain kit, gaskets, and oil pump are ready to go. I am taking a break to eat some dinner and I will finish putting it all back together tonight. I have no doubt the motor should last me a while, but I still feel a bit taken advantage of after the amount money and time I have spent on this engine, to be greeted with worn out factory or cheap aftermarket parts(as well as some improper assembly)...

 

I guess I will try sending him a polite E-mail and see if he offers to help with the situation somehow, as I am now out another $100 on this engine...I will see what he says...maybe he will do something to try and make good on the situation.