Blown HG?

[banzai510(hainz)]

Yeah on alum head one needs to change out the antifreeze more often.

 

My 521 has this also but lucky the head gasket was good enough. to keep from leaking. I didnt want to beg some guy to weld it.

 

could be steel and alum cause elctroylsst. however you spell it

Edited May 19 by banzai510(hainz)

[atkinson40]

Took head to MS Monday.   $140 to weld 3 places and resurface.  Get it back today.

In the interim, I have been studying how to time the crank to the cam.

 

I have the crank set at TDC.   I can see the #1 piston at the top and can feel it top out by a tiny pause on pulley as I rotate it.  The timing pointer points to the second from the last notch on my pully as I rotate it CW.  I know DM said the last notch, but I pulled the pointer off and tried to bend it to that notch…..not happening.   Second notch is deeper that the rest, so I’m assuming this is just a weird pully/pointer.

 

My cam gear does not have a notch on the back to line up with notch on the cam plate.   But the end of my cam does have a dowel sticking out that aligns with the notch on the plate at TDC.   This dowel also fits in one of the holes on the cam gear.  I can set the cam to TDC with this dowel.

 

My cam gear has three holes on the back.   It has numbers 1, 2, and 3 on the front.   They do not align with the holes on the back.   Which hole on the back should I set to the dowel pin on the end of the crank?

 

Now crank to cam:  My chain has 2 shinny links, but I do not see any “dimple” (I think this is what hainz called it in his video) on the lower crank gear or the upper cam gear to align the shinny links on the chain with.   How do I correctly install the chain?

Edited May 22 by atkinson40

[datzenmike]

The fire ring is a metal ring on the head gasket to protect the edge facing the combustion chamber. It also makes contact wiht the block and head metal to transfer heat. It's replaced when you replace the gasket.

 

Is this the compression stroke on #1??? both valves are closed???

 

 

Your description is for what's on there now??? or is this the replacement chain and sprockets???

 

 

 

 

[banzai510(hainz)]

On L16s if there is a pointer You use the BIGGER notch as TDC.  It might be the 2nd one on the right side. as the last is actuatually 5 def AFTER TDC.

 

So no need to bend the pointer.if there ever was a dought.  If anthing paint TDC with some paint

 

the dimple should be on the crank sprocket in like 3.30 position the Cam around 2 o clock on the links but the dowel will be pretty much at 12oclock when Cams sprocket installed

Put chain on the links brite links. Move the cam or crank till its on them and tighten it up. once you spin the motor cw wise and dial up to zero on crank then look at Cam sprocket, that V and notch on back plate should look likd this or right ON is fine. If you have a Mellig or Cloyes Sprocket you can see this caue the put the holes in different spots. Thats why best to get the Japanese kits

 

Everybody save these photos

Edited May 22 by banzai510(hainz)

[banzai510(hainz)]

6 hours ago, atkinson40 said:

“dimple” (I think this is what hainz called it in his video) on the lower crank gear or the upper cam gear to align the shinny links on the chain with.  

I dont know if the lower sprocket can be on backwards where you dont see the dimple. or a aftermarket one with no dimple. Maybe Datzenmike knows

But its ez. Look at the photos and if close you can gently tighten up the guides and put the front cover on temporerily and rotate the motor and see it it lines up the marks(pointer) and cam spocket timing .If bad redo it again till correct

Edited May 22 by banzai510(hainz)

[datzenmike]

Geez why would they make a set without timing dimples?]

 

 

One side..

 

The other side pretty much looks the same. Can you tell which is the front...

 

Well it's this side. The one that is flat without the bevel...

 

 

So when installed you can't see that bevel or flat side and the dimple may be on the reverse side.... or not at all.

[atkinson40]

6 hours ago, datzenmike said:

The fire ring is a metal ring on the head gasket to protect the edge facing the combustion chamber. It also makes contact with the block and head metal to transfer heat. It's replaced when you replace the gasket.

 

Is this the compression stroke on #1??? both valves are closed???

 

 

Your description is for what's on there now??? or is this the replacement chain and sprockets???

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, compression stroke #1.  Both valves were closed when I pulled the head.

 

I am not changing the gears.  I did so less than 10K ago.  Description is for what is on there now.  In the images shown.  Chain, tensioner and guides done at the same time.

 

OK, I think I see dimples now. There are there of them. One by each number.   Do I put the hole with #1 on the spindle that is on the end of the cam?

 

I'll look and see f I can tell if I have the crank sprocket on backwards.   I did not take it off, but I could have bucked up when I last put it on.

 

Edited May 22 by atkinson40

[datzenmike]

 

 

If L16/18 use #1 if L20B use #2 cam dowel hole. The corresponding #1 Dimple over around 2 o'clock is for one of the bright links. The other bright link (for L16/18) will be 42 links down, so now you don't really need the dimple on the crank sprocket. If crank at TDC then the chain just goes on where it goes. Bet the crank sprocket is on backwards, oh well, shrug.

[atkinson40]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

 

If L16/18 use #1 if L20B use #2 cam dowel hole. The corresponding #1 Dimple over around 2 o'clock is for one of the bright links. The other bright link (for L16/18) will be 42 links down, so now you don't really need the dimple on the crank sprocket. If crank at TDC then the chain just goes on where it goes. Bet the crank sprocket is on backwards, oh well, shrug.

 

 

I pulled all 3.   I now see a "0" and "LO" on the crank sprocket.  Maybe it was covered by the Oil Pump/Distributor Gear?   Maybe it was on backwards. 

 

I believe I've show what I think yo be the correct orientation.  Is the bevel on the Oil Pump/Distributor Gear to the back also?

 

 

Edited May 22 by atkinson40

[datzenmike]

Well it's on correctly and there's the dimple in the middle picture.

[atkinson40]

10 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Well it's on correctly and there's the dimple in the middle picture.

 

Thanks DM,  

 

I had not removed the oil pump worm gear and it was covering up the marks on the crank gear.   I will need to leave the worm gear off when I install the chain.

 

When I was prying off the worm gear, it went tumbling out of my hands.  So I didn't know the orientation.  Google says the tapered edge on the worm gear goes toward the engine.

 

That clears it up for me.  Both tapered edges toward the engine. 

[datzenmike]

Like the crank sprocket, I don't think it really matters which way. Taper towards the engine is the same as the sprocket so good enough.

 

I've never seen a gear set where the dimple wasn't exposed and visible when installed. Also the cam sprocket should have that notch so chain wear/stretch can be observed and the cam dowel moved to the next hole to adjust it out.

[banzai510(hainz)]

thats the crappy cam sprocket . whereyou cant see the cam timing.. They need to stop selling that one.  But long as the top sproket cam dimple matches the link on top and bottom sprocket   you be fine.  Juat can ck the cam timing later as no way to see. But these usually never stretch out that much to worry.

 

You can get the chain on bottom first then lift up to the cam. No need to take worm gear off. I cant remeber what I did in my vid but you cant cheat it that way when no guides are installed.

 

 

make sur to put back to TDC then install oil pump spindal correctly

Edited May 23 by banzai510(hainz)

[atkinson40]

Have head back.   They found a couple stripped threads when they loosened the cam to surface the head.  Needed a couple of inserts.   Still $140 out the door.

 

I bought the cheap engine gasket set from Rock Auto.  Everything will probably work OK except for the HG.

 

The one that came out is a Felpro.  Is this the preferred brand?

 

Amazon has the Felpro.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-21178-PT-Cylinder-Gasket/dp/B000C2E3I6

 

So plan is:

1. Spray HG with copper, let get tacky and install. 

2. Put on head and torque.

3. Set Head and crank to TDC.

4. Install chain.   Shiny links to dimples.

5. Install tensioner.

6. Rotate engine few times checking head to crank TDC correctness.

7. Install oil pump gear and oil slinger.

8. Install front cover.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by atkinson40

[datzenmike]

NEVER set the head down on any surface with the combustion chambers down.

 

 

Do not use gasket dressings, not needed, the head was just made factory smooth and fresh. The factory didn't use them. All it needs is a Gasket.

 

Set engine to TDC. Set head with cam turned till both #1 valves are closed. NOW you can mate them together and do the chain. This avoids any chance of bending a valve.

 

If this is an L16 or L18 set the cam sprocket on the #2 hole for the cam dowel. NOW install the timing chain with the top bright link on the matching #2 dot.

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Mike and I differ opinions on a few things. Yes, I would use copper spray on the gasket. If the gasket is not graphite coated already. If it is graphite coated, then no spray should be needed, But definitely put some black or grey RTV on the gasket where the block meets the front cover.

 

Also, DO NOT install the head unless it and the bottom end are up to TDC.  The cam lobes on the #1 cylinder will be pointed up in a V. Doesn't really matter if the bottom end is at TDC or 360 degrees out. Not for bolting the head on. It does matter if it's at true TDC for the distributor spindle.

 

[atkinson40]

I think they did ok. 

 

 

 

I'm assuming the spindle lining up with the mark on the camshaft plate is TDC for the head.   {Picture)  I'm going to find a way to mark the cam gear so I can find TDC with it on.   Maybe file a mark where the mark is supposed to be.

 

 

The bottom end should be set by the pointer on the front case.  I can set it on temporarily and make sure bottom is TDC. 

360 out would leave the pointer on the other side of the crankshaft pully?

 

Edited May 25 by atkinson40

[datzenmike]

TDC is set by the crankshaft. The cam TDC would be when the cam dowel is at 12 o'clock but in reality the cam is slightly advanced. That's what the V notch that was missing on the back of your 'old' cam sprocket would have shown. The V would have been just below that horizontal line and just a touch to the right. basically the center of the V would be directly under the right end of the line. The other #2 and #3 are about 4⁰ advance each and there to allow the owner to adjust for wear, chain stretch and for milling the head surface. All of which cause the cam events to happen later in relation to the crankshaft position.

 

If your new cam sprocket will likely have the V notch.

[datzenmike]

41 minutes ago, atkinson40 said:

The bottom end should be set by the pointer on the front case.  I can set it on temporarily and make sure bottom is TDC. 

360 out would leave the pointer on the other side of the crankshaft pully?

 

 

Negative. There are two TDCs on a four stroke engine. One is at the end of the compression stroke and the other is at the end of the exhaust stroke. The piston is at the top and the TDC mark at the pointer.

[banzai510(hainz)]

20 hours ago, atkinson40 said:

couple stripped threads when they loosened the cam to surface the head.

Happen to me also. its only like 10poubts on those

 

cam sprocket photo is correct.

 

this isnt hard. just put motor where the frist piston is near at the top. then place head on that is also TDC. then rest will go into place with the marked chain and dimples/ slight movement is Ok to get to it.  use the crank TDC or Zero mark as a reference.

Edited May 25 by banzai510(hainz)

[atkinson40]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

Negative. There are two TDCs on a four stroke engine. One is at the end of the compression stroke and the other is at the end of the exhaust stroke. The piston is at the top and the TDC mark at the pointer.

Thanks DM, 

 

I'll go out and rotate the engine around so the #1 piston ends up at the top both times around.   And see if the pointer points to TDC both times.   If it does, then how can I tell the compression from exhaust stroke by using the bottom end alone?

[atkinson40]

OK, Things do not add up.  I hope I'm overlooking something. 

 

It looks like the valves are going to hit the top of the piston.  

 

It looks like the valve is coming down 250 thousands.  Roughly.  And I've only got 200 thousands clearance from the deck of the block to the piston top at TDC.  I know the gasket will take up something, but not 50 thousands.

 

This seems like a problem for at least the exhaust stroke?

 

 

[datzenmike]

#1 piston should be at TDC (at top)

 

#1 valves should both be closed. Looking from the front the first cam lobe (exhaust) should be at around 2 and the intake at around 10.

 

#2 and #3 pistons are at Bottom DC. #4 is at the top also and intake and exhaust valves are just barely open during the overlap where the exhaust is still closing and the intake is just starting to open.

 

You'll get it. No worries

[atkinson40]

10 hours ago, atkinson40 said:

OK, Things do not add up.  I hope I'm overlooking something. 

 

It looks like the valves are going to hit the top of the piston.  

 

It looks like the valve is coming down 250 thousands.  Roughly.  And I've only got 200 thousands clearance from the deck of the block to the piston top at TDC.  I know the gasket will take up something, but not 50 thousands.

 

This seems like a problem for at least the exhaust stroke?

 

 

 

I think I figured this out.  The pistons are never TDC when the valves are open.   What a newb I am.  

[atkinson40]

10 hours ago, atkinson40 said:

OK, Things do not add up.  I hope I'm overlooking something. 

 

It looks like the valves are going to hit the top of the piston.  

 

It looks like the valve is coming down 250 thousands.  Roughly.  And I've only got 200 thousands clearance from the deck of the block to the piston top at TDC.  I know the gasket will take up something, but not 50 thousands.

 

This seems like a problem for at least the exhaust stroke?

 

 

 

I think I figured this out.  The pistons are never TDC when the valves are open.   What a newb I am.