A14 Piston Rings

[ToastyBass]

Alright, howdy Ratsun! I have an A14 I did all seals on, now it burns oil like a SOB.

 

It's either:

- PCV valve (replaced, didn't fix the issue)

- valve stem seals (I replaced those as part of the re-seal, doubtful but still a possibility)

- piston rings (also not likely b/c I didn't remove the rotating assembly, the engine was bolted to the transmission the whole time)

- There's also the off-chance it's because I haven't re-torqued the cylinder head yet, that'll be the first thing I do. (S/M says to assemble, get to operating temp, then torque them again)

 

I've seen people say "use Subaru rings" and I want details. I'm not doing an overbore or anything, I just want to know what Subie rings would work, or at least for what Subaru specifically.

[paradime]

I don't know what Subi rings you'd use, but you can get a good quality set from Total Seal, not the cheepo eBay crap. Make sure to get a chromoly top ring.  They'd be able to talk you through it. (800) 874-2753

[datzenmike]

Was it burning oil before???? Can't expect it to stop just because some seals were changed.

 

What seals besides valve seals?? front and rear crankshaft seals? Oil pan gasket? Timing chain gasket?

 

 

 

Is there visible smoke when driving? Mostly burning oil.

 

Place cardboard under engine over night. Is it dripping any? Mostly leaking oil.

 

Look at the spark plugs, they are a direct window into the combustion chamber. Are any BLACK???

 

 

 

 

[ToastyBass]

2 hours ago, paradime said:

I don't know what Subi rings you'd use, but you can get a good quality set from Total Seal, not the cheepo eBay crap. Make sure to get a chromoly top ring.  They'd be able to talk you through it. (800) 874-2753

Thanks a bunch, that sounds like a plan!

[ToastyBass]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

Was it burning oil before???? Can't expect it to stop just because some seals were changed.

 

What seals besides valve seals?? front and rear crankshaft seals? Oil pan gasket? Timing chain gasket?

 

 

 

Is there visible smoke when driving? Mostly burning oil.

 

Place cardboard under engine over night. Is it dripping any? Mostly leaking oil.

 

Look at the spark plugs, they are a direct window into the combustion chamber. Are any BLACK???

 

 

 

 

No, it wasn't burning before, otherwise I would've started asking questions sooner.

 

I got a complete engine gasket sealing kit, did everything but the rear main, that'll happen when I swap in the 5-speed, clutch, and machine the flywheel.

 

I know the difference between burning oil and leaking oil. There was a small leak since I got the car, now certain it's the rear main but it wasn't/isn't severe regardless, maximum 6 drops after shutoff. The nice cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust (especially when racing the engine) is a wonderful visual of the oil I'm burning.

 

Checking plugs will be the next move.

[datzenmike]

3 hours ago, ToastyBass said:

No, it wasn't burning before, otherwise I would've started asking questions sooner.....

 

....The nice cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust (especially when racing the engine) is a wonderful visual of the oil I'm burning.

 

 

 

So it wasn't burning oil, but now there's blue smoke?  How did you change the valve seals??? This is the only thing that would leak oil that's been changed. Maybe wrong ones or put on wrong. .

[ToastyBass]

Yeah, I'm hoping it's not the valve stem seals, but it probably is the valve stem seals.

I got a socket that fit over the top part of the seal and hammered it on with a dead-blow.

I hope it didn't, but that probably compromised one or more of the seals.

[datzenmike]

Did you remove the head to do this? or use the rope trick?

 

I don't know the A series seals but have done L series and they just push on, no need to hit them.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Valve tips tend to get sharp burrs where the keeper holds onto them, and those sharp edges can cut the seals. It's always a good idea to feel with your finger the tip of the valve before you install seals. If there are sharp edges, you can knock them down with medium grit emerycloth, without even removing the head.

[ToastyBass]

7 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Did you remove the head to do this? or use the rope trick?

 

I don't know the A series seals but have done L series and they just push on, no need to hit them.

I haven't heard of the 'rope trick' before, but I had to take the head off for the head gasket. ._.

 

 

7 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Valve tips tend to get sharp burrs where the keeper holds onto them, and those sharp edges can cut the seals. It's always a good idea to feel with your finger the tip of the valve before you install seals. If there are sharp edges, you can knock them down with medium grit emery cloth, without even removing the head.

That very well could be my problem... Would the cut be obvious? Or would it be so small I couldn't see it with my bare eye?

[datzenmike]

You said you 'hammered' them on. That can't be good for them.

 

With the valve cover off and plugs out, turn any cylinder till both valves are closed. Closed... not almost closed and do not use the starter. This is TDC for that cylinder. Now back the crankshaft 1/4 turn to lower the piston and place a couple of feet of 3/8" nylon rope in the plug hole. Tie a large knot in the end so there is no chance of it falling inside. Turn the engine forward by hand with a ratchet or Johnson bar till tight.

 

The rope will now be tightly compressed in the combustion chamber against both valves with no chance they will fall out. No special tools needed, no electricity or compressor, you could do this on the side of the road.

 

Change the valve seals. Grease the new ones so they don't go on dry. Like mentioned lightly sand the valve ends where the keepers wear into them. They should slip on by hand pressure.

 

On to the next...

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

There are modern type valve stem seals that require a hammer to install. Those are much better than the old umbrella type seals. Careful though, there are "rubber" and metal seals and then there are hard nylon (unsure, but they look like nylon) and metal. The white nylon seals are more for racing engines as the wear carachteristics are excellent, but they don't seal as well.

 

I like the rope trick. You need the special valve compressor though.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Here's a cheap valve spring compressor for doing it with the head on.

 

[ToastyBass]

Interesting thing with the rope trick, neat looking spring compressor tool, but I'll most likely save myself the money and remove the head again...

 

(I love OHV engines now for this reason, I don't have to fiddle with the timing all over again, just the valve adjustment lololol)

 

As far as what seals I used, there was no way I was pressing those on by just my bare hand.

It needed a bit of extra force to friction-fit on.

Work flow will probably run like this:

- Re-torque cylinder heads per S/M

- Check plug condition to identify problematic cylinder

- Perform leak-down test to gauge severity and possibly isolate the individual seal(s) audibly

- Pray

- Figure out if I need to pull the head again

 

Typing that all out just reminded me that cylinder 2 looked a bit rich compared to the other 3 ever since I got the car (darker colored plug, pretty sure it was black and I just wrote it off as a bad tuning of the carb) Don't get me wrong, it was running rich, but I tuned the carb and advance, timing light and all to get a beautiful idle around factory 700-750. It idled alright around 550 or so, but then my heart skipped a beat or two as the oil press. light flickered at me intermittently.

[ToastyBass]

Side note, Stoffregen, I see your FB page mentions "mandrel bent exhaust systems."

Could that potentially include... manifolds? 👀

[datzenmike]

A new gasket is at least $25. Then there is the risk of breaking something or stripping a manifold bolt hole. And time, most important of all. Your time is valuable. Back in the day I got removal of an L head down to 45 min but I cheated and took short cuts. Two hours off and two on would be close... pretty much most of a day. 

 

Surely you can rent or borrow one from NAPA? Don't they lend out?

 

Amazon $23... https://www.amazon.ca/KUNTEC-Universal-Overhead-Compressor-Removal/dp/B08SM2TB4H/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=Valve+Spring+Compressor&qid=1678911687&sr=8-12

 

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

20 hours ago, ToastyBass said:

Side note, Stoffregen, I see your FB page mentions "mandrel bent exhaust systems."

Could that potentially include... manifolds? 👀

I do make headers and the occasional intake manifold, but I usually require the vehicle to be here. It's the only way to ensure perfect fitment.

[ToastyBass]

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I do make headers and the occasional intake manifold, but I usually require the vehicle to be here. It's the only way to ensure perfect fitment.

I completely understand, and I doubt you've done an A-series engine before, given their rarity as far as actual use. A 13h road trip in the B210 would be interesting, if not painful (my ass would be crying). Any good resources on nice touring seats, anyone?

 

Anywho, thinking about it more, I've realized it can almost be guaranteed that the oil burning is from incomplete assembly (re-torquing after warming it up first thing).

The burn isn't severe until 10-20 seconds after startup, and it only got worse after each startup.

Iron block, aluminum head, probable expansion due to heat, haven't fully seated the head studs yet, it just makes sense that the head expands enough to let some oil in from the nearby gallery(ies), probably the longer bolt in the middle on the cam side of the block, being longer to accommodate oil for the rockers.

 

Only reason I haven't done it yet is bc the car is at school, MesaCC, and now we're on spring break lol. Monday, first thing, torquing time.

May be able to fix it for $Free.99

Edited March 16, 2023 by ToastyBass

[datzenmike]

Head gaskets don't require a re-torque these days. That's a 50s thing. Gaskets and engines are way better today. But if you feel the need re-torque, only on a cold engine just like when it was put together. When hot the expanded head would clamp tighter to the block.

 

If there was oil from the head bolt passage it would be all into #2 or #3 cylinder. Look at the plugs they'll be wet with oil. Ain't going to happen, besides the coolant passage is closer.

 

 

 

Replace the valve seals properly and if it still burns oil it's the rings.

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Re-torque is more for the fastener than for the gasket. I do re-torque on most engines I build/work on. It never hurts.

 

And yes, I've built A series headers for SCCA race cars. Many moons ago...

 

One of those engine was in a D sports racer. It was de-stroked to be 1000cc and would rev to 10k.

[ToastyBass]

5 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Re-torque is more for the fastener than for the gasket. I do re-torque on most engines I build/work on. It never hurts.

 

And yes, I've built A series headers for SCCA race cars. Many moons ago...

 

One of those engine was in a D sports racer. It was de-stroked to be 1000cc and would rev to 10k.

 

That's what I'm saying, S/M says so, and it would make sense since I also used the torque fastening lubricant the studs came with (not being re-torqued after operating temp)

 

And that's insane! I had no idea you could downsize an engine so much, now I'm curious: was it sleeved? Custom crank? That sounds super fascinating.

Perhaps you may have some records or photos of said headers?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It was a custom billet crank.

 

No, I don't have any pics. That was before digital cameras.

[datzenmike]

If it was an A12 the stroke reduced from 70mm to 59.75mm would make a 999.83cc engine. That's 10.25mm or close to 13/32"

[ToastyBass]

After tightening the cylinder head bolts and adjusted the rocker valves, the oil burn is much better, but still present. It's no longer my biggest concern for the car, I'll be making another post here in a second.

[ToastyBass]

Alright, I'm back, and a leak test reveals that both cylinders 1 and 3 had around 15% leakage, but cyl. 3 was the only plug covered in oil, all others were normal and nice-looking by comparison.

 

I'll be pulling the powertrain out to do a few things:

- Swap to a 5-speed (FS5W60A)

- New clutch, resurface flywheel
- Rear main oil seal bc I have a fresh one

- Get Nippon rings (yes they have the chromoly finish on 1st) P/N: SWN30045

- While I'm there, new main bearings, con rod bearings, and probably cam bearings as well.

- Do a quick little hone for the new rings

   -> What grit/size would y'all recommend? I'm seeing 180-240 for general with 320 recommended as top notch stuff

 

Figure I'd do them now so I don't need it later.

Wish me luck!

Edited March 28, 2023 by ToastyBass