crank trigger or electronic ignition

[frankendat]

Can't seem to find information searching Ratsun direct or with Google site search, which usually means I lack information (or understanding) to ask the right questions.

 

So, if ya'll be so kind as to aide the easily confused....

 

 Crank trigger (or crank angle sensor) ignition

As I understand it, the two listed above are different names for the same thing. Now some CAS/crank triggers can include a trigger wheel and a sensor attached to the crank. The CAS is wired to the ECU and controls spark plug firing and ignition. The set up removes the need for a distributor. BUT another method that achieves a the same result, mounting an ECU controlled CAS to control spark plug firing and ignition into a Z24 distributor.

 

Where I get twisted - isn't that a Z24i distributor the hard way?

 

[frankendat]

1 hour ago, frankendat said:

Can't seem to find information searching Ratsun direct or with Google site search, which usually means I lack information (or understanding) to ask the right questions.

 

So, if ya'll be so kind as to aide the easily confused....

 

 Crank trigger (or crank angle sensor) ignition

As I understand it, the two listed above are different names for the same thing. Now some CAS/crank triggers can include a trigger wheel and a sensor attached to the crank. The CAS is wired to the ECU and controls spark plug firing and ignition. The set up removes the need for a distributor. BUT another method that achieves a the same result, mounting an ECU controlled CAS to control spark plug firing and ignition into a Z24 distributor.

 

Where I get twisted - isn't that a Z24i distributor the hard way?

 

Hot Damn, I finally located the answer - Yes, a Z24i distributor contains a sensor and distributor and performs the same function as the trigger wheel/crank sensor set up. (I did find claims that a crank mounted crank sensor is more precise, but precision is relative

 

[datzenmike]

Crank sensor eliminates the worm gear to oil pump/distributor spindle slop of the Z24i CAS. The Z24i at least modified the spindle and put a spline on it rather than that sloppy half moon screwdriver blade approach.

 

Original

 

Z24i spindle

 

Z24 distributor CAS

 

The spline removes most of the wandering timing acceptable on a carburetor engine but not for emissions on an EFI one.

 

[Stinky]

What is it on....what you trying to do?

 

If you can run a stock 720 dizzy, do that and spend your money on something else.

 

If you are putting a computer controlled motor in, in place of a Z24, then I see your logic...especially if you are going to get the spark this way, and then run carbs.

 

Yes, your spark will be more exact.  But, a dual-point dizzy is way more than adequate to make a Small Block Chevy scream.  I heard a rumor, that when MIcky Thompson was going to Bonneville, that that is what he was running, and not an HEI dizzy....I believe it.  So, BFD on the spark being more exact, you haven't really gained anything that matters, because above 3,000rpm, (an abstract number that I just made up),  my guess is that the crank is pushing everything tight.  If you are changing RPM, and not revving it up, then it has slack, but not when pulled tight.

 

I've also read that your stock ignition is more than adequate.  And, that a modern coil on plug ignition only has about 22K volts....I tend to believe these last 2.  That said, I once had a CDI box hooked to points....it would jump 2-3" and man did it have a spark, BLUE!!!

[frankendat]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:27 PM, datzenmike said:

Crank sensor eliminates the worm gear to oil pump/distributor spindle slop of the Z24i CAS. The Z24i at least modified the spindle and put a spline on it rather than that sloppy half moon screwdriver blade approach.

 

Original

 

Z24i spindle

 

Z24 distributor CAS

 

The spline removes most of the wandering timing acceptable on a carburetor engine but not for emissions on an EFI one.

 

Thanks for weighing in DatzenMike, if I understand your post, it was an explanation of why a crank mounted crank sensor is more accurate than a distributor mounted because of  gear slop. I explored the crank mounted crank sensor option on a thread started by MobileJoe, where he attempted a crank sensor ignition. The consensus: As my engine will be mounted in a 4wd truck an subjected to deep snow, mud, and even creek/canal crossings, the probability of corrupting the sensor and/or trigger wheel nixed the idea.(Second hand testimony of crank trigger ignitions performing flawlessly, while driving in mud up to the door windows, buried by an avalanche, and for short distances submerged were not considered in the evaluation)  The plan shifted to a distributor mounted CAS. Are there additional steps/modifications necessary to allow the ECU the ability to fire 8 plugs and continuously adjust timing to insure Fuel/Air is optimized?

A final note: I will be spending the end of May/June in the shop and will have equipment available to create a spindle/spline gear connection without slop. Isn't part of the worm gear plastic? If not commercially available, creating one out of metal would be a challenge.  I find even small gains acceptable, when an opportunity presents. However, if gear spindle/spline gear connections are not the slop culprit and nothing is gained by perfecting gear interaction, motivation for this modification is significantly reduced.

[frankendat]

15 hours ago, Stinky said:

What is it on....what you trying to do?

 

 

15 hours ago, Stinky said:

If you are putting a computer controlled motor in, in place of a Z24, then I see your logic...especially if you are going to get the spark this way, and then run carbs.

 

 

Computer controlled injected Z24

[frankendat]

5 minutes ago, frankendat said:

Thanks for weighing in DatzenMike, if I understand your post, it was an explanation of why a crank mounted crank sensor is more accurate than a distributor mounted because of  gear slop. I explored the crank mounted crank sensor option on a thread started by MobileJoe, where he attempted a crank sensor ignition. The consensus: As my engine will be mounted in a 4wd truck an subjected to deep snow, mud, and even creek/canal crossings, the probability of corrupting the sensor and/or trigger wheel nixed the idea.(Second hand testimony of crank trigger ignitions performing flawlessly, while driving in mud up to the door windows, buried by an avalanche, and for short distances submerged were not considered in the evaluation)  The plan shifted to a distributor mounted CAS. Are there additional steps/modifications necessary to allow the ECU the ability to fire 8 plugs and continuously adjust timing to insure Fuel/Air is optimized?

A final note: I will be spending the end of May/June in the shop and will have equipment available to create a spindle/spline gear connection without slop. Isn't part of the worm gear plastic? If not commercially available, creating one out of metal would be a challenge.  I find even small gains acceptable, when an opportunity presents. However, if gear spindle/spline gear connections are not the slop culprit and nothing is gained by perfecting gear interaction, motivation for this modification is significantly reduced.

I should clear up my question a bit (what is in bold). My inquiry, in this case, is focused on steps/modifications of the ignition system and what is necessary for a digital ECU to physically change ignition/timing. I understand there are many other steps involved in this process.

[datzenmike]

Yes it fires 8 plugs but really you just need the firing signal for 4 plugs. The ignition module takes the signal and divides it to the two coils that fire together.

 

Long ago there was a discussion about the L/Z series ignition scatter. There is some spindle slop at the distributor base that causes the timing to vary and one cure was to put an aluminum pull tab on the top of the spindle and then mount the distributor crushing it. The connection between spindle and distributor is no better than a screwdriver in a screw slot and this makes it more solid. On a stock L series carburetor engine it didn't matter but for extreme precision and very fine tuning of the ignition timing (mostly for emissions and retard for detonation control) this wouldn't do. The Z24i used a spline to solve this and I think the KA engines also on their CAS.

 

 

280zx (non turbo) after '81

The matchbox on the '82-'83 280zx was changed from the E12 80 that had only two wires from the trigger to an E12 93 that had two extra wires on the bottom right side.

 

 

The E12 93 had a vastly different and complex circuitry inside compared to the E12 80 which was almost empty inside. This allowed the timing to be advanced/retarded for good performance and emissions control. It's filed with a jelly like clear yellow substance to protect it.

E12 93

 

If an E12 93 is mistakenly used to replace an E12 80 the timing will retard as the engine revs up. (I think grounding those extra wires deletes the timing changes) The E12 93 is connected to the zx's ECU and the timing is varied by it through the module. The '82 -'84 Maxima is the same. 

 

Here is an E12 80...

 

[frankendat]

7 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Yes it fires 8 plugs but really you just need the firing signal for 4 plugs. The ignition module takes the signal and divides it to the two coils that fire together.

 

Long ago there was a discussion about the L/Z series ignition scatter. There is some spindle slop at the distributor base that causes the timing to vary and one cure was to put an aluminum pull tab on the top of the spindle and then mount the distributor crushing it. The connection between spindle and distributor is no better than a screwdriver in a screw slot and this makes it more solid. On a stock L series carburetor engine it didn't matter but for extreme precision and very fine tuning of the ignition timing (mostly for emissions and retard for detonation control) this wouldn't do. The Z24i used a spline to solve this and I think the KA engines also on their CAS.

 

 

280zx (non turbo) after '81

The matchbox on the '82-'83 280zx was changed from the E12 80 that had only two wires from the trigger to an E12 93 that had two extra wires on the bottom right side.

 

 

The E12 93 had a vastly different and complex circuitry inside compared to the E12 80 which was almost empty inside. This allowed the timing to be advanced/retarded for good performance and emissions control. It's filed with a jelly like clear yellow substance to protect it.

E12 93

 

If an E12 93 is mistakenly used to replace an E12 80 the timing will retard as the engine revs up. (I think grounding those extra wires deletes the timing changes) The E12 93 is connected to the zx's ECU and the timing is varied by it through the module. The '82 -'84 Maxima is the same. 

 

Here is an E12 80...

 

Thank you DatzenMike! The information provided is exactly the general concept, which I was attempting to convey. Refining the general to the specific,1. are the listed ignition modules compatible with a KA24E ECU, a Nismotronic SA or Megasquirt/Microsquirt systems? 2. Additionally, would the referenced ignition modules be utilized in concert with a Z24i distributor with a CAS or are the ignition modules a different ignition setup entirely?

Finally,3. do you have experience with the Nismotronic SA? I have yet to locate one, but on paper the Nismotronic SA seems to address my engine management goals.

Thanks again

[frankendat]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:13 PM, frankendat said:

Thank you DatzenMike! The information provided is exactly the general concept, which I was attempting to convey. Refining the general to the specific,1. are the listed ignition modules compatible with a KA24E ECU, a Nismotronic SA or Megasquirt/Microsquirt systems? 2. Additionally, would the referenced ignition modules be utilized in concert with a Z24i distributor with a CAS or are the ignition modules a different ignition setup entirely?

Finally,3. do you have experience with the Nismotronic SA? I have yet to locate one, but on paper the Nismotronic SA seems to address my engine management goals.

Thanks again

Good Day, In addition to the three questions above, information concerning what is in bold below would be appreciated.

 

 I have an 8 plug Z24 distributor. It is my understanding, the distributor for a Z24 and the Z24i differ in the oil pump drive spindle. There are "teeth" on the  Z24i oil pump drive spindle to decrease "slop", which is necessary for fuel injection. So, for those with thick heads (like me) to employ a Z24 successfully as a fuel injected engine (Z24i) a Z24i oil pump drive spindle must be used.

 

Is the bold text above correct? Are there other changes needed to employ the Z24 8 plug distributor in a injected Z24i? (My next question is what will be necessary components to install a CAS) e.g. connections/sensors and wire into an ECU) Proper ECU has yet to be acquired.

 

Installing a crank sensor on the crank is ill advised on trucks, as the jarring and off  road nature could impacts sensor effectiveness. Presently, I am pursuing a crank sensor mounted within the distributor. Is there a kit for this?

[frankendat]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:32 AM, datzenmike said:

Yes it fires 8 plugs but really you just need the firing signal for 4 plugs. The ignition module takes the signal and divides it to the two coils that fire together.

 

Long ago there was a discussion about the L/Z series ignition scatter. There is some spindle slop at the distributor base that causes the timing to vary and one cure was to put an aluminum pull tab on the top of the spindle and then mount the distributor crushing it. The connection between spindle and distributor is no better than a screwdriver in a screw slot and this makes it more solid. On a stock L series carburetor engine it didn't matter but for extreme precision and very fine tuning of the ignition timing (mostly for emissions and retard for detonation control) this wouldn't do. The Z24i used a spline to solve this and I think the KA engines also on their CAS.

 

 

280zx (non turbo) after '81

The matchbox on the '82-'83 280zx was changed from the E12 80 that had only two wires from the trigger to an E12 93 that had two extra wires on the bottom right side.

 

 

The E12 93 had a vastly different and complex circuitry inside compared to the E12 80 which was almost empty inside. This allowed the timing to be advanced/retarded for good performance and emissions control. It's filed with a jelly like clear yellow substance to protect it.

E12 93

 

If an E12 93 is mistakenly used to replace an E12 80 the timing will retard as the engine revs up. (I think grounding those extra wires deletes the timing changes) The E12 93 is connected to the zx's ECU and the timing is varied by it through the module. The '82 -'84 Maxima is the same. 

 

Here is an E12 80...

 

I keep re reading these posts and still missing it. Is an ignition module necessary in addition to an ECU? The pictured are for a ZX, are they interchangeable with KA24 or Z24?

[datzenmike]

I would say no connection between ignition module and the later KA.

 

The early 280zx was just a distributor with an EI matchbox that could retard the ignition on demand from the ECU

 

The later 280zx did have a CAS and it's just a wheel with 360 marks plus 4 at 90 degrees apart. A photo electric cell reads the marks and somehow within a turn or less the ecu knows where the crank is. There is no EI module and the ECU tells the coil when to fire after accruing some sensor input and generating a proper advance or retard.

 

Near as I can saw this is roughly how it works.

 

The Z24i, the later 280zx and the KA engines have basically identical CAS with a spinning wheel inside. Above it is the rotor and cap.

[frankendat]

52 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

I would say no connection between ignition module and the later KA.

 

The early 280zx was just a distributor with an EI matchbox that could retard the ignition on demand from the ECU

 

The later 280zx did have a CAS and it's just a wheel with 360 marks plus 4 at 90 degrees apart. A photo electric cell reads the marks and somehow within a turn or less the ecu knows where the crank is. There is no EI module and the ECU tells the coil when to fire after accruing some sensor input and generating a proper advance or retard.

 

Near as I can saw this is roughly how it works.

 

The Z24i, the later 280zx and the KA engines have basically identical CAS with a spinning wheel inside. Above it is the rotor and cap.

To recap, only because I already have one, will the  internals of Z24i, or KA transfer over to a Z24 8 plug distributor?  If so, depending on price the CAS sensor appears a mission critical piece of tech, best bought new. Was there an 8 plug KA24E distributor? At least in my part of the world, KA24E parts are more abundant than Z24i. I require parts able to monitor and adjust fuel, fuel Air, boost, knock etc. preferably by the KA24E ECU or a modified KA24E ECU or common standalone ECU.

[datzenmike]

Only the NAPS  system used dual plugs. Z series and CA series engines. The KA-E and DE were single plug.

 

I would imagine the Z24i and the KA CAS would work the same so a KA ECU would probably work with a Z24i CAS.

 

Would Z24i CAS internals fit a regular Z24 distributor? no idea.

[frankendat]

9 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Only the NAPS  system used dual plugs. Z series and CA series engines. The KA-E and DE were single plug.

 

I would imagine the Z24i and the KA CAS would work the same so a KA ECU would probably work with a Z24i CAS.

 

Would Z24i CAS internals fit a regular Z24 distributor? no idea.

Thank you for responding DatzenMike, your not having an answer is a red flag that I have wandered too far off the reservation. After much more time and trouble than should have been required (Damn air conditioning pipes in the way of a SCREW HELD distributor cap) I have pictures of the internals. Is this a CAS distributor?

[datzenmike]

I don't think so. I see the ignition module in there. In addition the Z24i CAS distributor has a spline on the end...

 

 

The Z24i CAS does not have a module inside that turns the coil on and off to generate a spark. The CAS only tells the ECU where the engine crank is and it figures out when to fire the coil.

[frankendat]

The distributor in the pictures I sent is on an 84 720. There is no reason there should be a CAS in there, but I have started to doubt, what I thought I knew.

 

I keep discovering new information, that countermands earlier "improvements". Some time back I custom coated an oil pump, according to the seller and the directions included on the box, the oil pump is compatible with a Z24 and Z24i. Looking at the internals of the pump, the "rotor" (part pictured) has a slot,

[frankendat]

A Z24i distributor has the splines, which is necessary for fuel injection or so is what I read.  Should the oil pump rotor have a slot and splines for use in a Z24i? Also,the angled slot pieces that protrude into the slot to attach the Z24i, even with the splines, seem less than ideal. Is there a better (more robust) connection with the non-angled Z22 spindle    connector with splines?

I became aware of the Z22 spindle in the build thread of Thisolddatsun

Edited May 9, 2022 by frankendat

[datzenmike]

No need for splines on the oil pump it just pumps oil. The distributor is directly connected to the engine timing and if any slack in the drive the timing will wander about.

[frankendat]

5 hours ago, datzenmike said:

No need for splines on the oil pump it just pumps oil. The distributor is directly connected to the engine timing and if any slack in the drive the timing will wander about.

An angle may have presented, I have yet to handle a Z24i distributor in person, but images and photos show a thicker section at the junction of the distributor and the spindle shaft. There is a hole in this "sleeve", which could be a place to inject oil or, a place for a hex head or other screw that holds the sleeve. If the latter, then this sleeve coupler should be removable and available separately, yet I cannot find a listing or illustration of this part.

 

Distinguished members with knowledge of the Z24i could you spare some truth.

[datzenmike]

 

This is the Z24i CAS I took apart. IIRC the base spline part is attached using a roll pin.

[frankendat]

16 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

This is the Z24i CAS I took apart. IIRC the base spline part is attached using a roll pin.

That is one fantastic piece of information! I have been paging through a couple of FSMs, and haven't found a "exploded view" or part breakdown (looking for a breakdown like those on nissanpartsdeals.com. Is such information available in the factory service manual? Mine is without an index, which section most likely harbors this information?

Thanks in advance

 

Post Script: I caught myself in the crime of assumption, it happens often, to us assumptionholics. I assume, since the Z24i spline coupler is separate from the distributor shaft, without it the distributor would attach, to a non-splined spindle and function, as a Z24. Conversely, when a Z24i splined coupler (pictured above) is attached to a Z24, a splined spindle is required and a Z24i is born.

[datzenmike]

 

Above is an assortment of L and Z series spindles.

 

Bellow is the Z24i spindle.

 

 

It's questionable if a Z24i distributor with the spline coupler removed would fit on a Z24i spindle or the other way around. Today, if I remember I'll have a look for the Z24i spindle (I also have a Z24E spindle and they look the same) and what's left of the Z24i distributor and the coupler spline.

[frankendat]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:30 AM, datzenmike said:

 

Above is an assortment of L and Z series spindles.

 

Bellow is the Z24i spindle.

 

 

It's questionable if a Z24i distributor with the spline coupler removed would fit on a Z24i spindle or the other way around. Today, if I remember I'll have a look for the Z24i spindle (I also have a Z24E spindle and they look the same) and what's left of the Z24i distributor and the coupler spline.

Interesting. I was wondering if the major components of a Z24 distributor and a Z24i distributor (maybe, even a  KA24E distributor?) are the same (perhaps, to save complete retooling of a production line). So, to add the splines necessary for fuel injection  Z24i), rather than building a new distributor, the Z24 distributor parts were used,  but a spline coupler and splined spindle were added. My mind jumped from there to "A Z24 distributor will become a Z24i distributor with the addition of a coupler with splines and a splined spindle. However, this is complete and total speculation on my part, some may doubt my ability to bullshit, but I am good enough to bullshit myself most of the time.

 

Before I get distracted, any thoughts on the question posted below? 

On 5/10/2022 at 12:57 AM, frankendat said:

I have been paging through a couple of FSMs, and haven't found a "exploded view" or part breakdown (looking for a breakdown like those on nissanpartsdeals.com. Is such information available in the factory service manual? Mine is without an index, which section most likely harbors this information?

 

Finally, and I realize requesting multiple answers in a single post is problematic, from my reading, for a Z24 (which, again in this instance will be an 8 plug Z24 with a spline coupler and splined spindle) to employ computer controlled ignition, a crank angle sensor (CAS) is needed. A CAS requires the part listed below.

https://www.amazon.com/Dts-Distributor-Ignition-Compatible-Infiniti/dp/B092CL74LJ

I do not think that is all that is necessary, but I will save further questions to subsequent posts.

[frankendat]