Cpl620 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Ive rarely looked into this topic, but since i need to mod my oil pan a bit to fit my build, this came to my mind. I recently took apart a Porsche 914 type 4 engine, and it had a strange sump area, so it got me thinking... With most Dry sump conversions ive read up on, they remove and or bypass the the mechanical pump, and in turn run an electric pump. This requires most of the time, some work to your block or just a shit ton of money for a kit to even get it working. On top of that I'm not a fan of electrical pumps feeding my engine. If the mechanical pump works, would you be able to just weld a line to your pick-up, and feed it with a gravity sump? Then re-weld your pan into a small sump, and have an electrical scavenge pump (or two) relocate the oil to your sump above? I think I remember seeing a DIY dry sump conversion somewhere here, i really cant remember though. Quote Link to comment
willz Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 basically a small pan with an outlet for a pump, a good baffle in the pan, pump can be electric or belt driven and there will be a resevoir and some other bits as you know... les collins did a nice one: http://lescollinsracing.com/images/Engines/L20_4V/Ready_for_dyno.jpg http://lescollinsracing.com/images/Engines/Nissan4V.jpg http://lescollinsracing.com/images/Engines/L20_4V/Making_Dry_Sump.jpg http://lescollinsracing.com/images/Engines/L20_4V/Oil_pump_drive.jpg Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Getting an after market belt driven pump would be sweet, but i would need to bypass the mechanical pump already in the engine. I would not want to put more pressure or less pressure on the pump already there. and i think removing the pump requires modifications be made internally. An electrical pump to just scavenge what is in the pan would be the best idea while keeping the stock pump? I just want to relocate the large sump, so i have more room below. Edit: damn, that KA almost puts mine to shame... Quote Link to comment
willz Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I posted it because Its an L18 with the KA head swap, whatever he's using on there... i'm sure you could use 1 Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Here is an article I wrote for the Dime Quarterly on dry sump systems. Dime Quarterly, Vol 8. Issue 4 2 Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Awesome read Dave, thanks for posting and sharing. My only question is about stock internal oil pumps (like on the KA24) that are driven directly from the crank, as this read seems to be geared towards external pumps. Would this system still work just piggy-backing through an original internal pump/system? whats your thoughts on that? Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Awesome read Dave, thanks for posting and sharing. My only question is about stock internal oil pumps (like on the KA24) that are driven directly from the crank, as this read seems to be geared towards external pumps. Would this system still work just piggy-backing through an original internal pump/system? whats your thoughts on that? I wouldn't piggy back with the OE pump. What you will need to do is plug the oil galley in the block that the OE pump feeds at the front timing cover. You will need to drill and tap the block and install a pipe plug. This way when you connect the dry sump pump's pressure supply stage to the oil filter adapter it will feed the bearings not bleed off into the oil pump chamber causing loss of oil pressure. The OE oil pump in the timing cover should be gutted so it will not seize from lack of oiling. You will need to either keep the crank mount gear or replace it with a spacer so you have something for the crank bolt to tighten the pulley and cam chain drive gear against. Also when you first fire a dry sump engine, prime the pump to push all the air out of the lines. I've done this by driving the pump with a 1/2" drill. By using the drill's chuck as a drive gear and running the gilmer belt over the chuck it will turn the pump to create pressure. On the L series race engine, I just watched down the oil fill cap for oil to come out the spray bar to know I had oil to the top end. I guess on the KA you could watch for oil at the cam/lifters with the valve cover off. Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 That's good to know, and a bit simpler than i had originally thought. Some good ideas as well, it gets my mind turning a bit for future work. What if i did something like this? Its not so much piggy backing off the OE pump with a new one, it just serves as a sump relocation since all i really new is room to lower my engine. in essence, the same thing as a dry sump i guess. Would the OE pump be taxed to much by "drawing" the oil from a longer distance? Sorry for the 20 questions on what seems to be the same question. I think this is my last idea i had on the topic. Again thanks for sharing all your knowledge. Edit: green circle is the OE internal oil pump. Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 That's good to know, and a bit simpler than i had originally thought. Some good ideas as well, it gets my mind turning a bit for future work. What if i did something like this? Its not so much piggy backing off the OE pump with a new one, it just serves as a sump relocation since all i really new is room to lower my engine. in essence, the same thing as a dry sump i guess. Would the OE pump be taxed to much by "drawing" the oil from a longer distance? Sorry for the 20 questions on what seems to be the same question. I think this is my last idea i had on the topic. Again thanks for sharing all your knowledge. Edit: green circle is the OE internal oil pump. That should work. In the OE configuration your pump draws oil up from the pan below, with a remote reservoir it would be some strange design if the oil level was at or lower than a stock oil pan. One thing I would buy is a C4 deaeration filter (available from Weaver Brother Dry Sump). These were used on WWII piston powered aircraft to reduce oil foaming as the suction stages pushed oil and air into the oil reservoir. Proper reservoir design and using a C4 filter greatly reduce oil foaming which will KILL an engine. Been there done that. 1 Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted May 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Im sitting here, trying to type a final paper, and wondering.... Im not a fluid dynamics major but i understand fluid will try to "even" out the pressure. so if you have a reservoir with a hose end thats lower than the top of the water, it will try to push it self through. SOOOOOoooooooooo. If you created a remote reservoir for your oil and places it higher than your stock oil pan (like above)....would that cause the oil to seep through your oil pump and through all the oil galleys, ultimately pooling in your engine? I can see this possiably being a problem if it fills up your cylinders, but at the same time would be AWESOME to prevent dry starts as you have constant oil pressure in your system. maybe just place the sump low(er) as to not play on the dynamics too much? or just run the electric scavenge pumps before turning the engine over. im thinking a super low pressure check valve type thing would work too (like the squirt bottles for your mustard) THOUGHTS?!?!?!?!??!!! Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Widen the pan and add baffles. Same amount of oil (maybe more) at a lower level away from the spinning crank. Baffles would keep the oil around the pickup and prevent splashing during high Gee corners and braking. You would have to be driving it pretty hard to need dry sump and certainly not needed on a street car. Cpl620, what is this for? Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Its not so much the need for performance as it is for space. Im trying to sit my engine lower in the bay, but with a normal pan it sticks far down past my cross member. I was thinking about widening it, but it would save a lot of hassle to just remove it completely.King, its for my build, which will be all around event + daily. Quote Link to comment
Laecaon Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Do you not care about how far down the tranny bellhousing sits? Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 I do, to a point, but its not the original transmission on the engine im using, so i have some space to play with. I have a 1UZ-FE which only came in auto, and mounted a 350Z 6speed to it. Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 little bump to get this back in the light. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I do, to a point, but its not the original transmission on the engine im using, so i have some space to play with. I have a 1UZ-FE which only came in auto, and mounted a 350Z 6speed to it. I guess I and everyone assumed this was an L series engine? Quote Link to comment
Cpl620 Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 ahh, that may be true. i guess not everyone is a project page section whore like my self. hahahaha. but still, i think the same design and theory would carry over to any internal pump engine. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 It sure would. I guess on an L series motor it would be wasted effort. Quote Link to comment
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