no start. so pissed I'm trolling

[cdub42]

so, i hop in the Z to move it and it won't start. i go through all the basics. 

 

fuel.... check

spark... check

floats... check

plugs... check

 

think i jumped a tooth on the timing. my cam still spins, but i can't even get the bastard to kick. sometimes it coughs unburnt vapor out the carbs. fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck. i know what I'm doing today. 

 

so, i want you (the ratsun collective) to diagnose my problem for me. spoon feed me step by step through the whole process. i don't believe in searching before posting, I'm going to provide you with the most general and vauge of descriptions of my motor setup. 

 

L26. aftermarket cam. crane cams xr-500. the motor is painted chevy orange and thats very important to note as it just might have decided to stop working in protest to my color choice. theres a buncha other stuff that ill "remember" later

 

 

[MicroMachinery]

It's been pretty cold lately. Does it crank strong? My battery got too cold and it ended up taking me a while to get my 610 started the other day. Been starting it and warming it up twice a day just to keep it from getting too cold since then.

[cdub42]

Thought about that. It cranks normal. I even hooked it up overnight to the charger to be sure

[I'm BLUE]

Get a chance to manually turn your chokes on at the SU carbs themselves ?

Sometimes those get sticky somewhere along the way... especially the 40-year+ old choke cables themselves , and I've had to go click them on manually at the carbs fully quite a few times.

 

It's my experience that SU's on an s30 won't start at all without those baby's give or take fully turned "on"

[datzenmike]

Assume SUs..... Get a Windex like bottle with pump sprayer. Put a cup of gas in it and direct a spray (4 or 5?) into both throttle openings.Crank er up.

[I'm BLUE]

Assume SUs..... Get a Windex like bottle with pump sprayer. Put a cup of gas in it and direct a spray (4 or 5?) into both throttle openings.Crank er up.

 

Indeed confirmed.

Dual round-top SU's (although I was pretty sure as I looked at cdub's thread quite a bit before :lol: .. :D ).

 

Post# 197 (almost bottom of the page)

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/44848-i-want-a-z/page-10

[datzenmike]

SUs don't have accelerator pumps to manually richen the mixture for extra cold starts. It should still start in cold weather but ....

 

 

Maybe electric hair drier on intake snorkel? Plug in for 2 - 3 min before cranking?

[I'm BLUE]

Indeed su's don't have accelerator pumps. My round-top early 240z SU's (cleaned out/float levels right and filters changed often) still needed the choke to be on to start in mild 48-65 degree weather and even when warmer. Although my engine was an L28 as well , so a little bigger was a factor.

 

I was just thinking about the carbs being frozen on the linkage/cables/etc when you posted (rain ? snow ? vent dripped on something .. idk) ... I'm not sure as it doesn't seem likely , but it is 16 degrees Farenheit here this morning in east portland,OR , so it could easily be colder where cdub is at.

Hair dryer is a good idea , and my heat gun works great , but gets MUCH hotter than a hair dryer. Not sure if that's an advantage or not really.

 

EDIT: If that xr-500 is a hotter high-rise cam I would say the chokes to work would be a necessary. I'm not sure what the specs of it are though , and not that is matters a whole lot right at the moment.

[cdub42]

Assume SUs..... Get a Windex like bottle with pump sprayer. Put a cup of gas in it and direct a spray (4 or 5?) into both throttle openings.Crank er up.

i gave it hell with some starter fluid and no go. 

 

Indeed su's don't have accelerator pumps. My round-top early 240z SU's (cleaned out/float levels right and filters changed often) still needed the choke to be on to start in mild 48-65 degree weather and even when warmer. Although my engine was an L28 as well , so a little bigger was a factor.

 

I was just thinking about the carbs being frozen on the linkage/cables/etc when you posted (rain ? snow ? vent dripped on something .. idk) ... I'm not sure as it doesn't seem likely , but it is 16 degrees Farenheit here this morning in east portland,OR , so it could easily be colder where cdub is at.

Hair dryer is a good idea , and my heat gun works great , but gets MUCH hotter than a hair dryer. Not sure if that's an advantage or not really.

 

EDIT: If that xr-500 is a hotter high-rise cam I would say the chokes to work would be a necessary. I'm not sure what the specs of it are though , and not that is matters a whole lot right at the moment.

i don't know how exactly cold it was here last night, low teens for sure... cold enough to make the 25 degrees it is now feel kinda warm. my datsuns live in my shop and with the propane heater going it get to around 60 degrees in here. by comparison to just on the other side of the door I'm ready for shorts and pina coladas. 

 

ill try manually closing the chokes with a bit of wakeup spray to see what happens.

 

its not that I'm planning on driving it anywhere in this weather... its the fact that it won't run! thats what pisses me off

[cdub42]

 

[I'm BLUE]

Shorts and pino coladas ftw !

 

Sounds like you've been doing everything right to me since the start of the car , and have not a doubt you've tried everything I would have already.

.

hmmmm .. looking at your build thread I notice you don't have an zx e12-80 EI distributor or e12-92 modified zx EI distributor installed.

I'm not sure if you have a 280z EI distributor or not ? .

 

If not I'd take a hard look at the strength of your spark and work with the points/condensor as well as the wires/connections.

I had a 240z distributor with pertronix wire/module installed ... leak on me ... and cause issues.

Ignition coil wires tend to want to jump the gap and leak as well even if there is great spark :)

ballast resistor connecton's (if you are using them) get crapped up to. Now and then the ballast resistor goes bad.

 

Sorry if this is redundant which we all know it is.

rule of thumb for datsun = " if you believe it to be the carbs look at the ignition system and vica versa "

 

:) you'll get it.

I have a hard time typing all this since you've confirmed the basics are working and have been checked.

 

Frustration is totally understandable..... I stopped throwing tools (wrenches I needed right then ironically.. der der) when I was about 18 years old ... :lol:

[datzenmike]

That pop out the carb should be looked at.

[cdub42]

Shorts and pino coladas ftw !

 

Yup. I hate turning wrenches when I'm cold

 

hmmmm .. looking at your build thread I notice you don't have an zx e12-80 EI distributor or e12-92 modified zx EI distributor installed.

I'm not sure if you have a 280z EI distributor or not ? .

 

 It's got a stock 240 dizzy with a crane xr-500 optical timing kit.

 

If not I'd take a hard look at the strength of your spark and work with the points/condensor as well as the wires/connections.

I had a 240z distributor with pertronix wire/module installed ... leak on me ... and cause issues.

Ignition coil wires tend to want to jump the gap and leak as well even if there is great spark :)

ballast resistor connecton's (if you are using them) get crapped up to. Now and then the ballast resistor goes bad.

 

 Spark is decent. I'd like to see it hotter. Ballast points and condenser been replaced by the xr-500. Resistance of the coil checked in spec iawtm tell me more about your leak

 

Frustration is totally understandable..... I stopped throwing tools (wrenches I needed right then ironically.. der der) when I was about 18 years old ... :lol:

  

I have a dart board. I'll play a game of darts and or have a drink.

 

That pop out the carb should be looked at.

that's why I'm thinking the chain jumped

[datzenmike]

I don't think it's physically possible for an L series chain to jump a tooth.

 

Popping out the carb.

 

Lean backfire...too cold, needs a choke or richer mixture to get started when cranking.

 

Could be a too tight valve, burned valve, bent valve or otherwise damages valve seat not sealing in the compression.

 

Could also be carbon tracking on the dizzy cap or rotor or poor insulation on two wires allowing the spark to jump and fire another cylinder.

 

Two wires mixed up.

[cdub42]

I'll do a compression test tonight or tomorrow. That'll rule out problems in the head. New cap rotor and wires never hurts. Plugs are new circa 2 months ago. I went with 2 steps colder plug. It ran smoother and I didn't have anymore knocking. I need to get my grubby pays on a color tune to double check the mix. I'll dial it out to see if it'll start

[I'm BLUE]

The earlier heads ( E31 , all E88's ) all tend to have the sunken valves issues (soft seats).

I believe the N42 has the same issue ^^^ , but I've never ran one or checked one myself (even though I owned one :rolleyes:)

The N47/P79/P90/P90a heads of mine I haven't seen it as much , but always looking for it. (harder seats).

 

Man... carbon tracking was really common on my points distributor(s) ... good or bad parts/condition ( I'm guilty of using cheap cheap dizzy caps and rotors ... then quality parts ... ).

Leaking plug wires is common on these. NGK wires did me no favors ironically love their spark plugs. 8mm plug wires solved that issue on the one 73' z :D

 

I've had a couple distributor cap center carbon bushings fall apart/out of the distributor on my L28et and L24. (ran like poop at idle with lots of missing obviously and semi-good through the range).

[cdub42]

so, im a little confused at the moment. went to go look into picking up a higher output coil. MSD and ACCEL websites are no help. so i called their tech support lines and they were telling me about making sure the resistance matches my setup. i thought since i was running the XR-700 i didn't need to worry about that since i don't have points anymore? either way... of all the coil options they presented me... none are in stock... no new caps either. bummer. I'm feeling kinda dumb right now. i thought i had all this shit figured out! or it could be my brain trying to resist against bad information from a reputable source.. so.. starting over.... mental reboot in progress..

 

I'm going to upgrade my coil to get a hotter spark for my higher comp medium cam having engine. I'm gonna put a new cap and rotor on it to rule out them completely as my problem. I'm gonna get some MSD super conductor wires because i can make them to the length i want. i don't like the over the cover stock routing, I'm thinking routing them around the front of the motor and across the side would look cleaner. I'm probably gonna re route the choke cables too, but thats a subject for a different thread. might throw that in my now dusty "i want a Z" thread. or perhaps see if i can't get datzenmike to stick this thread on the end of that thread... but i digress.. and realize that the double americano from starbucks has metaphorically spilled into this post.

[datrod]

 

Get a chance to manually turn your chokes on at the SU carbs themselves ?

Sometimes those get sticky somewhere along the way... especially the 40-year+ old choke cables themselves , and I've had to go click them on manually at the carbs fully quite a few times.

 

It's my experience that SU's on an s30 won't start at all without those baby's give or take fully turned "on"

 

Not true. I haven't had choke cables for years. My car starts just fine everytime I get in it. Runs like poop for a few blocks, But no biggie. But I live in So Cal and my car is in a garage. So not outside in the cold.

[I'm BLUE]

 

 

Not true. I haven't had choke cables for years. My car starts just fine everytime I get in it. Runs like poop for a few blocks, But no biggie. But I live in So Cal and my car is in a garage. So not outside in the cold.

 

yeah... you live closer to the equator , and your part of So Cal where it's about 30-degrees warmer as we speak :lol: .

I should put my cars in the warmer garage.  They live in the cold *hangs head low* ...

It would be nice to not have to use the choke though (exception of engine already being warm)

Your z looked good in that video , and sounded even better man ... congrats.

[datzenmike]

You don't need a higher output coil. If it takes 20K volts to fire your plugs then that's what a 40K coil puts out. The voltage is not instantaneous. It rises over a finite time, a very, very short time but time just the same. Once the voltage reaches a point where the air breaks down between the plug electrode and ground and an arc starts, the voltage stops rising. The arc is a short to ground. It might be able to throw a 40K spark but mostly it's a waste. 

 

Best thing are good quality plugs and wires. A good cap and rotor with high dielectric strength. High voltage ALWAYS looks for the easiest path to ground. By using quality ignition parts the easiest path to ground will be the gap on the spark plug.

[datrod]

yeah... you live closer to the equator , and your part of So Cal where it's about 30-degrees warmer as we speak :lol: .

I should put my cars in the warmer garage.  They live in the cold *hangs head low* ...

It would be nice to not have to use the choke though (exception of engine already being warm)

Your z looked good in that video , and sounded even better man ... congrats.

Thanks, They sped the video up a bit kinda made the car sound like a street bike, Don't get me wrong the car sounds good, But not quite that good.

 

Now let's get back to cdub's problem. :thumbup:

[cdub42]

You don't need a higher output coil. If it takes 20K volts to fire your plugs then that's what a 40K coil puts out. The voltage is not instantaneous. It rises over a finite time, a very, very short time but time just the same. Once the voltage reaches a point where the air breaks down between the plug electrode and ground and an arc starts, the voltage stops rising. The arc is a short to ground. It might be able to throw a 40K spark but mostly it's a waste. 

 

Best thing are good quality plugs and wires. A good cap and rotor with high dielectric strength. High voltage ALWAYS looks for the easiest path to ground. By using quality ignition parts the easiest path to ground will be the gap on the spark plug.

i agree with what you are saying 100 percent in regards to a stock engine. 

 

but mine isn't stock. i went with cooler plugs because i was having detonation issues. the term "cooler" is a bit misleading, it is to do with the peak operating temperature of the plug and not the temperature of the spark. if the plug itself gets too hot it will cause pre ignition. higher rated octane gasoline can withstand more compression before it spontaneously ignites. cooling down the spark plug tips helps keep it from detonating. opening up your spark plug gap initiates the ignition of the fuel/air mix better, but requires more voltage to get it to the point where the air brakes down and an arc occurs. 

 

just throwing a high output coil on a stock motor is a waste of money unless you get your jollies from being able to point at the shiny red can attached to your fender well. 

 

but understanding the theory behind it all doesn't help me one bit at the moment... 

 

just for shits and giggles i moved my plug wires 180 out on the cap... damn thing fired up.... serious WTF moment last night. it wasn't running happy, but it was running. so back to square one scratching my head. someone played a trick on me? imma have to static time the motor today to see whats really going on here. quick question, on a L26... how do i verify TDC? imma roll the #1 to TDC on the compression stroke, but how do i verify its at the very peak of its swing? the piston itself will sit there for a second as the crank reaches its apex... id like to be sure I'm at its apex... making sure shit is exact is the curse of the professional aircraft mechanic. "just good enough and close enough" will keep me up at night

[datzenmike]

There will be a pointer (mounted on the timing cover near the crank) and a series of notches in the pulley on the crankshaft. I think this is how the L24/26/28 works. Again not sure which side... my L18 is on the drivers side.

The L20B is on the pass side and has a single notch on the pulley and a saw tooth timing scale mounted on the timing cover.

 

Find the timing pointer or scale and turn the crank with a wrench to bring it up to the 0 (zero) mark.

[cdub42]

My L24 is set up the same as my L20b; notch on the pulley and hash marks on the block. but the L26 has hash marks on the pulley and a wobblematic pointer held on the block with a screw on the passenger side. I'll do some searching to see what gradient the hash marks are and divine which is zero. I've always timed by ear followed by a short hard drive. Advance it till it knocks then back it off till it don't.... And then adjust for how I plan to drive.

[cdub42]

Well, pulled the valve cover. Static timed the motor. Yup. 180 out. Adjusted the XD-700's optical sensor, gapped my plugs at .060. Then, for good measure....

When in doubt, throw money at the problem. New coil and wires. Cap any rotor are on their way. Car runs.