newest 720 sas

[wayno]

BTW, local salvage yard has a '85 Nissan PS pump for $35... I am assuming it would mount differently as it would be on a KA24E instead of an L20B, but I could always make my own mounting bracket.

 

If it is on a 85 nissan truck, it would be connected to a napZ engine.

All my PS mods have needed custom mounts for the pump, the reason I like the sentra pump/reservoir is that it compact, but it will not work in all situations, sometimes one has the use the hardbody/pathfinder pump with the remote reservoir, the hard part is finding the pump with the correct lines that will bolt up to the 720 steering gear, on top of that, the 720s had two types of PS gears with different line connections.

I have had no issues with my sentra pump/reservoir in my 520 project so far, it works great.

[godzirra]

ah, thank you for the correction.

 

As far as pressure lines go, I am HOPING the salvage yard has a truck somewhere that I can just yank out parts, get a pressure line, and start trying things out before I scrap my manual gear box. I always like knowing I have everything I need before I start (you should have seen me getting ready for the whole SAS gig). There are plenty of Sentra pumps at his particular salvage yard aswell.

 

Which hose lines did you end up using? I am assuming a Sentra line and a Nissan line together.

 

The 720 steering gear/lines I would be getting are for the '80 model, which Advance has, as pricey as they are (like $200 for JUST the steering gear and $100something for the pressure line), and should fit perfectly.

 

I do have a relatively wide base of plumbing friends and associates through the small (incredibly small) hardware store our family owns, so long as the thread pattern and sizing on the 720 gear aren't COMPLETELY alien, I can probably work something out in hardline.

 

I really wish I could slap some more photos up here, issues occurring because I am trying to copy/paste the pic URL from my inbox at aol.

 

Thanks for the input, if you have any other ideas/tips about the home-making of a power steering system I am happy to hear them

[wayno]

It has been so long now that I don't remember what pressure line I used, fact is I am mad at myself for forgetting what/where it came from, because it is a short one, and short ones are hard to find, and that is because the 720 PS pump is always on the passenger side in the 720s, and the steering gear is on the drivers side, so the line goes all the way across the front.

The short one did come from somewhere, I just don't remember where, the only other short one I have was made at a hydraulic lines/parts place, there are issues that you can have with short lines, if you shake the pressure hose quickly sideways when empty of fluid, you will hear/feel something rattling inside the hose, it's a coiled piece of metal like a slinky inside the hose, it's a baffle of sorts, it stops the fluid from being able to flow smoothly/freely, if it did, the steering wheel could keep wanting to turn after you stop turning from the momentum the fluid has going, so if you have one made, the rubber part of the hose should be stock length, and it needs that coil inside of it.

I do not recall ever seeing a 1980 datsun 720 with power steering or a tilt wheel, but 81s did have both.

[]2eDeYe]

 

I also would like to think that power steering would solve a lot of the problems, for instance at about 45-50mph if I hit a decent bump, no matter how hard I brace for impact (I'm not a small fella) the tires still force the steering wheel. I don't know if any of you guys have run ex-military MTR DuraWalls, but those suckers have some ass behind them, we are talking 50lb a piece w/o a wheel.

 

 

 

Bumpsteer, it's probably due to the drag link angle. Got any pictures from the front?

 

 

 

 

I really wish I could slap some more photos up here, issues occurring because I am trying to copy/paste the pic URL from my inbox at aol.

 

 

 

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/691-how-to-post-pictures-and-keep-online-photo-albums/

 

:)

[K_trip]

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[godzirra]

as you can see by the pictures I have tried the stabilizer solution, unsuccessfully (though it did help, some). Sorry every thing is dirty, couldn't resist an off-road test drive :)

 

what am I doing wrong?!? have at it.

 

 

 

[K_trip]

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[godzirra]

I dont particularly like it either, if there is anything wrong in the geometry it has to be that drag link, I just don't understand what way to go with it to definately solve my problem.

 

I can flatten out that second bend in it (highest bend on the right in the 2nd pic) and move the bend up closer to the pitman arm to bring more of the drag link closer to the tie rod, but thats a lot of heating and pulling for results I am not sure about.

 

I can also have the fab shop drop down the pitman arm that I already have on it.

 

Just wondering how to proceed.

[K_trip]

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[godzirra]

when you say steering arm are you talking about the pitman arm? the pitman arm end is secured with a 5/8 grade 8 bolt, and a nylon locking nut with a washer on the under side between the heim and pitman. it has no play in it either. only thing I don't like is the angle... other than that it's pretty darn tight (I hit it with the impact wrench to make sure).

 

When I first put it on the road, the place you're talking about WAS a sloppy spot, normally nissan pitman arms don't have the same hole size as a 5/8 heim (it still had that 1/2" taper crap) so I had to drill it out to fit a 5/8, I used a bastard rod file in a 110v drill so the bolt is in the p-arm pretty tight (I would probably have to heat the thing and really pound on it to get the bolt out of the arm).

[K_trip]

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[]2eDeYe]

Definitely the drag link angle causing your bump steer. That thing is waaaaaay off plane. No amount of bends will fix it, the problem is that you need the 2 ends to be in line and as parallel to the axle as possible. The bends don't change the line between the 2 ends, it's always a straight line geometrically speaking.

 

Here is mine. You can see the tie rod and drag link are almost parallel. I have no bump steer and my steering does not wander at all.

 

 

 

I am using high steer and a stock drop Toyota steering arm to get them in the same plane. No stabilizer needed.

 

Heims in single shear is an accident waiting to happen, especially because you have them at the limit of their operating angle on that drag link. You should at least get some retention washers or something on there to stop them from coming apart if the ball pops out.

That drag link probably rolls a bit before it actually transmits any directional force, adding to the sloppy feeling. I am really against using them in a steering application for that reason. You should have someone turn the wheel while you watch the linkage. Have them start off inside the slack and gradually work up to the full crank. This will give you a much better idea of where the slack is coming from.

You could also jack up the passenger wheel and watch the steering wheel turn as the draglink runs through it's arc. This will show you how the bump steer is happening.

Good luck and make it safe to drive.    :)

 

 

 

^THIS is not a bad fix, you might want to try it.

 

Bump steer might be your problem, but I think that's less of an issue on a smooth highway.

I have a lifted 70's Ford with PS, the larger tires want to wander so I use a steering stabilizer.

Some might poo-poo the idea, but I think these things really reduce wear on steering parts.

 

 

Actually the stabilizer could cause more wear, as you are fighting to overcome it's damping every time you turn the steering wheel. I am a firm poo-pooer of that idea.  :lol:

 

[godzirra]

You are correct, I just got someone to turn the wheel while I watched and the DL actually does not roll, it FLEXES, the thing actually compacts when turning to the right. I am assuming this is because of the angle to the pitman arm. (that and the steering gear does have an inexcuasble amount of slack)

 

Only question is how to fix it:

 

option A

get the fab shop to make a new drop-pitman out of my current arm. these guys specialize in farm/heavy equipment and they have done some of the crutial welds on my truck already so I have faith in them. also reshape/shorten the DL to take up whatever lost slack (if necessary) I would really like to get rid of the bends in it. work in it for me is simply pulling the pitman arm and mathing out the angle I want.

 

option B

purchasing hi-steer components and installing the steering arms to raise the drag link. only issue here is clearence, if I come up short and the TR or DL collide spatially with the leaf packs then I am back to square zero.

 

either of these options, along with a PS system should get me where I want to be in terms of steering control.

 

let me know what you think.

[godzirra]

]2eDeYe, I assume you are running a PS system aswell?

[]2eDeYe]

Yep, I am running a Toyota steering box. I have 1" spacers on my highsteer arms to get everything above the springs. I set the yota box on the frame to optimize my drag link angle. The body mount had to be modified to get it this far forward.

 

 

 

Used this kit for mounting to the frame.

 

http://www.marlincrawler.com/steering/box/heavy-duty-ifs-steering-box-mount-kit

 

 

 

Slightly modified, cut it up even more than that actually. 

 

 

 

Gave me good angles all around.

 

 

 

 

I used this pitman arm. I am probably going to get a different arm that is a tad shorter as the drag link rubs the tie rod a little bit from time to time. That is the second link.

 

http://www.marlincrawler.com/steering/box/crossover-pitman-arm

 

http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=135

 

Get the geometry correct and you'll be able to hold it straight with one finger   ;)

 

[godzirra]

one problem with the scout high steer, no flat top knuckles. and the high steer "kit" for a IH D44 is friggin expensive because of that. I am almost sure I can engineer a way around paying $750 to move my tie rod/drag link up 4" (and when I say "engineer" I mean actually engineer, as in not riggin', like bust out the AutoCAD). either that or dropping the pitman arm (which is an increasingly favorable option the more I research prices).

[]2eDeYe]

Grab a set of knuckles from a Jeep Wagoneer or a Chevy truck with the Dana 44 at pick n pull. Make sure to verify they both sides are flat tops as they weren't for a few years on both trucks. All the Dana 44's have the same ball joint and knuckle spacing (the corporate GM 10 bolt front axles use the same knuckles as well). The drivers side should already be milled and tapped on the Chevy knuckle, you can send the passenger side in to get milled drilled and tapped by this guy if you don't have a friend with a mill.

 

http://www.partsmike.com/index.php?crn=204&rn=1377&action=show_detail

 

 

He also sells the knuckles already done if you wanted to go that route. You may be able to find a set already done for pretty cheap on ebay or craigslist.

 

 

If you have a machinist friend you can use this. (I found this on the internet, you will want to verify the dimensions with whatever steering arms you end up getting)

 

 

 

 

 

The tops of the knuckles will need to be milled at an angle to match the steering arms as well. You can see the machined angle on the arms I have in this picture. The arms sit like \    / that ish and the machined flats end up parallel to the axle and tie rod.

 

 

 

 

 

You don't want to have any bends in the drag link or the tie rod as you are putting the tube in a failure mode before you even put it on the truck. You could see that when it was flexing at the bends. You might think about going to one ton tie rod ends over the heims for the reasons I have already mentioned.  Hope this helps.   :)

 

[godzirra]

I am searching the car-part data base right now for knuckles (sadly the only pick-n'-pull IN THE STATE is 3-1/2 hours north). And this IS the solution I had in mind, since there has to be SOME WAY and all d44s are similar animals so there has to be SOME interchangeable knuckle that will work. I will keep up the hunt for a pair that will work, just drive real slow till then.

 

I have already come to the realization that I am going to need to destroy this thing to make it what I want so I am just planning on a week-ish of parked down time. plan is to pull the front axle (not hard) break down EVERYTHING (take off brakes, hubs, axle shafts, differential) except yanking the tubes out of the housing, correct the caster angle, slap on the high-steer knuckles, re-gear (going back with 5.38s already have gears&bearings) and then put it all back together and put a driveshaft on it.

saying it seems so simple.

 

thanks for all the advice, I am always glad to listen

[]2eDeYe]

Sounds like a good plan. :thumbup:

[K_trip]

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[]2eDeYe]

Firm but not too hard is better than too soft :lol:

 

 

Fords steering geometry is as bad as the inverted Y system they use on the Jeep TJs.   :sick:

 

Every design has it's compromises :console:

[K_trip]

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[godzirra]

I would like to believe that a steering stabilizer doesn't adversely effect the driving experience because of the mechanical advantage imposed by the steering gear (and PS if applicable).

 

That being said I do not believe they are necessary in all (or most) cases, physically speaking if your tires are balanced correctly, suspension is aligned correctly, and there is no slop in the components (and you aren't trying to run 80mph through a freshly harvested pine stand), all the stabilization you need should be there. That does not always mean that it is. So if a $60 horizontal resistance-piston and some u-bolts makes your ride drive like it should, go for it. 

 

just my $0.02

[poor-mans-720]

Did you get the front shackles braced up? I can only imagine with them in the front, and not being braced that it could cause some play too.

IF you are going all out and doing caster angles. Might take the extra time and do a shackle reversal. Put them in the rear. It makes the ride alot smoother on, and off the trail.

And +1 that drag link looks sketch. But check out huge mud trucks. They run insanely massive Z bars and do fine. You should be able to check the caster angle on the rig. and either use shims or shackle length to tweek it a little. mine is -5 degrees on the dot. The only reason I had death wobble was, a sloopy heim joint on the drag link to my steering arm. I put on legit toyota high steer and a good tie rod and drag link. I believe i could take my steering stabilizer off and not have any issue. But I like how it softens any super harsh feed back while turning.

 

You might try just bending your draglink to parallel first. You said you like cheapest option first lol... Kinda looks like it is binding on the steering arm too. might need a spacer in there. 

[poor-mans-720]

@2DeYe you know that your front shackles are opposite? BTW a sick!!! 620....