air strut questions

[Zfighter76]

oh shit, nvm, just thought harder, the rears wouldnt work on the front lol. maybe theyll work on the back though...

[oldskoolvws]

This actually what I have been contemplating. It is actually all three; shock, coil-over and airbag. Again, as the others not cheap, but it provides a little of everything. Its the size that is currently throwing me off (too large of a diameter). I will likely make my own setup with a 4" bag if I go this route.

 

Also by doing this, the unfortunate thing is all the weight is in the shock tower. All about extension and reinforcement.

 

 

 

Really wish I could afford these: http://www.kwsuspension.de/HLSAnimation/index.html (wait for it!)

[Zfighter76]

what size is this in diameter?

[Zfighter76]

i was thinking about how i could make my truck hook up better, and i thought about how the shocks are at angles pointing towards each other with a loss of better words. wouldnt the rear squat really well if i just made the shock position straight up and down? it seems physically impossible for the axle to move straight up when the car squats if the shocks are at angles.? am i wrong? it just seems like the angle shock position would only allow the axle to twist on the vertical plane rather than moving straight up. this is what makes solid axle trucks bounce upon loss of traction and acceleration correct? and if i were to make mounts which made the shocks straight up and down i would have to add some sort of coil springs? to help with rebound? or would the leafs be good enough?

[Rjawm]

There are also air cylinders that are like hydraulics but use air instead. Thats what I had in mind if you were gonna try a close to bolt on setup. So for the stuff I was saying at first replace strut with air cylinder. Unfortunately air cylinders don't handle very well. Their is a lot to designing performance handling and I am no pro, yet. The basics, if you want to make your truck handle you want a low center of gravity, equal weight distribution to all 4 tires (counteracting body roll), as well as a large contact patch in relation to road conditions and tunability. People work there whole lives pursuing performance handling so it really is beyond the scope of one thread. What I am doing is coil overs at all corners using Beebanis brackets in the front and a custom 4-link in the rear and 4 way disc brakes.

 

Running air cylinders is pretty much no different than running hydraulic cylinders, just a lot less messy. They are great for rigid, forced suspension adjustments, but you still need to have an operating suspension with decent travel for any sort of good ride characteristics. And no, accumulators don't make it that much better, only slightly at best. I left the air cylinders out for the same reason as hydraulics, the OP had mentioned he wanted some sort of handling even after adding in an adjustable suspension into the mix.

 

There are some short travel air bag set-ups that are intended to be mounted on the top of coilovers for that extra bit of lift to get over bumps and into driveways. Just another option being thrown out there. EDIT: I see that's kinda the direction your link goes, haha.

 

 

 

I hate to say it but as this thread goes on, your questions seem to get farther and farther from when you posted this,

 

i know about how suspension geometry works

[Big Schlink]

To clarify in post #10 I said you could use an air strut like I was using a coil over to replace the torsion bars then in post #21 I was trying to say that in post #10 I was thinking air cylinder but said air strut, not that it really matters.

 

Theoretically you could replace the front shock with an air cylinder and remove the torsion bars entirely. If you could connect each end of the air cylinder and if it would fit through the upper control arm. This is the same thing I am doing but with coil overs.

 

I'm trying to keep things in terms the OP will understand.

 

When your rear axle cycles through it moves in an arc, not straight up and down. The angle of the shock affects how the dampening is applied at any given time by tilting the shock a ratio is created so straight up and down would be one to one. For every inch the axle moves the shock will also move an inch. By mounting the shocks at an angle it allows the dampening to be progressive meaning that as the shock is compressed the ratio increases giving more or less dampening toward the end of the shocks travel.

 

I think the question of what you plan on doing with your truck needs to be answered. Do you want to cruise, or carve corners?

 

So just lower it, or bag it, or replace everything with coil overs. Then drive it.

[Big Schlink]

As far as hooking up better this is one of the places I started learning a long time ago: http://www.competitionengineering.com/articles/chassis2.asp The black arrow is pointing to the front of the vehicle.

 

 

[Zfighter76]

Running air cylinders is pretty much no different than running hydraulic cylinders, just a lot less messy. They are great for rigid, forced suspension adjustments, but you still need to have an operating suspension with decent travel for any sort of good ride characteristics. And no, accumulators don't make it that much better, only slightly at best. I left the air cylinders out for the same reason as hydraulics, the OP had mentioned he wanted some sort of handling even after adding in an adjustable suspension into the mix.

 

There are some short travel air bag set-ups that are intended to be mounted on the top of coilovers for that extra bit of lift to get over bumps and into driveways. Just another option being thrown out there. EDIT: I see that's kinda the direction your link goes, haha.

 

 

 

I hate to say it but as this thread goes on, your questions seem to get farther and farther from when you posted this,

 

i do know the basic princible of how suspension geometry works, i know how wheel hop happens, but i dont know what needs to be done to fix it. i understand how cars work but i am unclear on how problems will be fixed. also im not used to solid axle cars, this truck is my first. im just asking questions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zfighter76]

To clarify in post #10 I said you could use an air strut like I was using a coil over to replace the torsion bars then in post #21 I was trying to say that in post #10 I was thinking air cylinder but said air strut, not that it really matters.

 

Theoretically you could replace the front shock with an air cylinder and remove the torsion bars entirely. If you could connect each end of the air cylinder and if it would fit through the upper control arm. This is the same thing I am doing but with coil overs.

 

I'm trying to keep things in terms the OP will understand.

 

When your rear axle cycles through it moves in an arc, not straight up and down. The angle of the shock affects how the dampening is applied at any given time by tilting the shock a ratio is created so straight up and down would be one to one. For every inch the axle moves the shock will also move an inch. By mounting the shocks at an angle it allows the dampening to be progressive meaning that as the shock is compressed the ratio increases giving more or less dampening toward the end of the shocks travel.

 

I think the question of what you plan on doing with your truck needs to be answered. Do you want to cruise, or carve corners?

 

So just lower it, or bag it, or replace everything with coil overs. Then drive it.

so i guess what i should say is that i want to be able to take my truck to the canyons, but also want it to hook up in a straight line. i never really wanted adjustable i guess i just never though of using coilovers with a solid axle, now i realize that it can be done, i just didnt think about it. so what i wanna do is handle and hook up. adjustability doesnt matter. can my truck hook up well with the angles shocks then? i now realize that that is important for cornering but it wont allow the truck to hook up as well as how you said it a 1:1 ratio. could i do a somewhere in between and move my shock halfway in between stock and vertical so it will still corner and not lean like a bitch and yet still squat more? and can i do an upper link setup with the stock springs to prevent axle wrap? thanks for all the help, im very grateful that some people will share their information with me instead of saying how i dont know what im doing. everyone has to learn.

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

As far as hooking up better this is one of the places I started learning a long time ago: http://www.competiti...es/chassis2.asp The black arrow is pointing to the front of the vehicle.

 

 

 

 

I have issues with the first picture and description from that link. Yes the pinion does try to 'climb' the ring gear but the entire axle assembly would rotate forward and down in a clockwise direction and not as described or shown in the picture. Even the two little arrows show the wheel backing up.

 

 

"When horsepower is suddenly delivered to the differential, whether from a clutch or torque converter, the pinion attempts to 'climb' the ring gear. This sudden shock of torque causes the entire rear axle housing to rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment."

 

 

"climb"o rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment.

When horsepower is suddenly delivered to the differential, whether from a clutch or a torque converter, the pinion attempts to "climb" the ring gear. This sudden shock of torque causes the entire rear axle housing to rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment.

This picture would be correct but the description is still incorrect.

 

 

 

 

 

and i was going to try and bolt on my 280z rear drums on, not sure if the diameter is the same but i think maybe tomorrow ill try just for kickcs. if it fits than ill go and find another set of rears from the junkyard, and then i can run 4 lugs on the truck haha. and use my ansens ;)

 

 

haha, what? 280z aluminum drums all around? :P if it works i think itd be cool. i see how the rears may not work but seeing as how the front is a spindle setup, i think it may fit there haha

 

 

oh shit, nvm, just thought harder, the rears wouldnt work on the front lol. maybe theyll work on the back though...

 

So did you get the 4 hole 280z drums over the 6 stud 620 axles yet??

 

Pretty sure the 620s are 10" drums and the shoes are 1 3/4" wide. The 280z are 9" and 1.57" wide. Being from a Z car doesn't make them better. The 620 weighs 2,700 lbs and carries another 1,00 lbs fully loaded and the brakes reflect this.

 

[Zfighter76]

I have issues with the first picture and description from that link. Yes the pinion does try to 'climb' the ring gear but the entire axle assembly would rotate forward and down in a clockwise direction and not as described or shown in the picture. Even the two little arrows show the wheel backing up.

 

 

"When horsepower is suddenly delivered to the differential, whether from a clutch or torque converter, the pinion attempts to 'climb' the ring gear. This sudden shock of torque causes the entire rear axle housing to rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment."

 

 

"climb"o rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment.

When horsepower is suddenly delivered to the differential, whether from a clutch or a torque converter, the pinion attempts to "climb" the ring gear. This sudden shock of torque causes the entire rear axle housing to rotate backwards in a counter-clockwise direction. This causes the springs to distort, resulting in severe driveshaft/U-joint misalignment.

This picture would be correct but the description is still incorrect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So did you get the 4 hole 280z drums over the 6 stud 620 axles yet??

 

Pretty sure the 620s are 10" drums and the shoes are 1 3/4" wide. The 280z are 9" and 1.57" wide. Being from a Z car doesn't make them better. The 620 weighs 2,700 lbs and carries another 1,00 lbs fully loaded and the brakes reflect this.

yeah, i tried just because i wanted to tear something apart, but they didnt fit. i kinda realized that they wouldnt but i wanted to try anyways haha. and the truck is actually lighter than the 280z... the 280z says 3000lbs and the truck says 2500lbs. and i would never fully load the truck i dont think. its not going to be used as a truck other than carrying bikes and skateboards etc.

[Zfighter76]

and yes i also realized that that first example seemed weird, im assuming they meant that for a ford, dont fords torque the opposite directions? it doesnt show the wheel going the wrong direction, its saying that the axle torques backwards and the leaf torques upwards.

[datzenmike]

and yes i also realized that that first example seemed weird, im assuming they meant that for a ford, dont fords torque the opposite directions? it doesnt show the wheel going the wrong direction, its saying that the axle torques backwards and the leaf torques upwards.

 

Yup that makes sense now. The wheel goes forward and down but the housing goes the opposite direction. Action/reaction.

[Zfighter76]

so is there any way to get my truck to squat and handle? besides fully independant suspension swap haha. ?? i might try just making another mount about a few inches in from the stock ones just to test, and then one straight up and down, i guess this would give me adjustability, if i take it to the drags i could stand them straight up and if i wanna canyon carve i could lay them over more. and for normal street driving ill put them in the stock position. and any answer on if it would work to put an upper 2 link on with the remaining leaf springs? just because a budget is also a considering factor haha. but fabricating is fun so i can make mounts and stuff