Pictures of a 5 speed Dogleg?

[NWOleman]

Can anyone post some pictures of a dogleg 5 speed so if i ever find one i know what im looking at. Thanks

[LenRobertson]

Are you thinking of a dogleg for your 610 wagon, or do you have a 510 or something else in mind? I pulled a 4-speed out of a 610 4-door, thinking I could use it in my 510. I was surprised it is a long-tail, so I'd need to cut the drive line for it to work in a 510. What I'm saying is, if you want a 5-speed for a 610, a dogleg may be too short. If you are converting over from an automatic, I don't know what length those are in a 610, maybe short-tail length. If you haven't already done it, measure the overall length of the trans you are replacing. Long-tails are about 31" and short-tails around 26". Those lengths are from my memory, so somebody correct me if I'm way off.

 

Len

[NWOleman]

Thats the plan. I want to put a 5 speed in the 610 to replace the 4 speed. I was under the impression that a dogleg is a direct replacement for the 4 speed. The 4 speed i have has like a transmission cover pan on the bottom.

[LenRobertson]

The dogleg-same-length-as-4-speed is true for 510s. 610s are such an uncommon car, there isn't so much information on them. If I didn't have this 610 4-speed, I would assume they used the same length 4-speed as a 510. I just went out and measured the length. From the front of the bell housing to the end of the tail piece casting is just about 31 1/2" (that is stretching the tape right down to the tail). This tranny has the flat pan on the bottom like a 510 4-speed. It actually looks like one on an auto trans. But measure your tranny just to be sure what length you have.

 

If you have a length of 31" or so, it's your lucky day. That means you can use almost any of the RWD Maxima, 280Z/ZX, or PU longtail 5-speeds. These will have the conventional shift pattern (not dogleg) and are heavier duty than the dogleg trans. Generally considered a much superior trans. And should be easier to find one than a dogleg trans, since they were sold in so many more vehicles. You may need to do some mods to the cross member under the rear of the tail piece, or replace the rubber mount with something thinner. At least on a 510 that is needed to keep the tranny from hitting the underside of the trans tunnel. That may not be true for a 610. The other thing with a longtail 5-speed is there are several different gear ratio sets in different models/years. It may be worth posting a seperate question on gear ratios, if you decide you can use this style trans.

So measure your 4-speed, and I can give you more ideas on which way to go.

 

Len

[phatdave]

Hey Mike.... post the photo of my Tranny here,okay? I don't have the pix any more. Thanks!

[NWOleman]

Will do. Yeah thats the tranny i have, loks like an auto tranny pan on the bottom. Thanks man. It will have to wait to get measured 4 a day or 2 tho, its raining like a motherf*cker here today. An 1" sinch 8 oclock this morning so far, looks like another flood. Have a merry christmas!

[LenRobertson]

You might get a close enough idea on your trans length by measuring from shift lever in neutral to firewall, and add firewall to front of bell housing distance. That way you don't have to jack up the car and crawl under. Mine measures about 29" from bell housing to where the shift lever goes in, and I think the lever comes more or less straight up as it comes through the floor. Short tail trans is about 5" shorter, so you should be able to tell which you have. But if it is raining like that, maybe you don't even want to go outside. And you should double check by looking from under the car, when it stops raining (March?).

[datsunaholic]

610s came with the short-tail stock- except Automatics, since the only "short" auto was the Borg-Warner unit used on older 510s. A/T 510s from mid-70-ish on used the long, 3N71 transmission that every other RWD Datsun through the early 80s used.

 

I'm wondering if Len didn't find a 610 that had been converted from Automatic- all 610s should have a bottom-cover, 63-series transmission- the SAME transmission used in the 510- a F4W63.

 

My manuals state that all 610s had the same 4-speed, however starting with the 710 a different 4-speed was used- the F4W63L. The L variant looks very similar, it's exactly the same length, an has the same bottom cover, but the speedo output is on the opposite side and the rear mount is in a different spot. THIS is the 4-speed that is bolt-compatible with the Dogleg. The earlier F4W63 equipped cars need the mods- so the 610 needs the same mods as a 510.

 

Oh, BTW, easy way to tell a 4-speed shorttail from a 4-speed longtail- NO LONGTAIL has a bottom cover. None. Nil. Only shortys.

[LenRobertson]

Okay, I just went out and looked at what I have. It is raining/snowing/not nice, so it was a quick look. It's funny, when I pulled these trannys, it was at least 95 degrees and I wasn't sure I would survive. I've a 4-speed from a stock looking 510 w. 1600 (1972 I'm pretty sure). Measures 26 1/2" from front of bell housing down to rear of tail casting (so my measurement is a bit longer than the true OAL). My other tranny came out of what I thought was a 610, although I didn't get the year, so maybe a 710? Again, a stock looking 4-door with L20B, square port head (of course the engine could have been changed). This one measures 31 1/2". And it has a pan on the bottom. Speedo inlet on opposite sides. Also, the same type shift lever mount as the 510 4-speed - lever sticks down through a rubber bung with a nut on the bottom. The difference in length between the two trannys seems to be in the tail piece. The bell housing/front section measures the same. If the weather gets a little better, I'll drag both of them in and take a pic. Let me know if there is anything else I can check. This type of mystery drives me crazy.

[LenRobertson]

The shifters on both trannys are Type A as shown at the bottom of this page:

http://www.gracieland.org/cars/techtalk/gearing2.html Did any of the 5-speeds with Type A shifters have a pan on the bottom? Maybe there is an extra gear there I haven't found. I don't recall any sign of the tunnel hole being cut out on the car, but as I said, it was super hot that day and I might have missed some details. I do remember I was using my cherry picker engine hoist in dirt, not on concrete. I got the L20B hoisted, and was using a bar to get the hoist back from the car. At some point in the fun, the whole thing tipped over. Luckily there was another junk car parked right beside, so the engine tipped down onto the trunk and I could unhook the hoist to reposition it. Great sport, hunting for Datsun parts.

[phatdave]

Look at Dime quarterly.....back issues volume#7 issue#1.

 

It has a rebuild article reguarding the Daglag, or "fs5w63a" Tranny.

[datzenmike]

phatdave's mystery dogleg. Didn't we think it was from a Z car because of the tranny mount, but recently think it may be from a 910/Maxima because they share the Z car platform???. Has a 63aA cast into it.

 

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/Tranny/transphatdaveunknownZtransmaybeMaxi.jpg[/img]"]

 

I have this one down as 'long tail 63A dogleg from an 810'

 

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/Dogleglongtail63afroman810L24.jpg[/img]"]

 

I'm hoping for a picture from another forum that shows a long tail dogleg that fits a NAPS Z engine, and will post it when I get it. He describes the correct pattern, but you never know.

Edited March 14, 2009 by datzenmike

[phatdave]

I'm thinking we will never figure out what it came outta...but it is a dogleg.

 

Unfortunately not a 5 speed...it's more like a 2 speed w/ reverse? I'm going to take up one of our Datsun brothers gracious offers for a free 4 speed and fling it in to get it on the road. I will shop around for a rebuild on the "dog".

 

Like I've said the truck sat for 13 years before I got it back and it's been here since another 3 years so whats another few months right?:rolleyes:

 

Thanks for saving the picture Mike.

[datzenmike]

Dave, that's what this guy says!!! He had a 720 5spd, and got a replacement tranny, it fit right in but the switches are in different spots and he can't seem to find 5th gear. Maybe it's a 4 gear?

[LenRobertson]

Thanks to a lot of work by my wife, I finally have some tranny pics here. Not the greatest, I'm afraid. I'll re-shoot when the weather improves, but I thought I'd get these up for now.

 

Two 4-speeds. Short tail from a '72 510 in front. Long tail from a 610 or 710 in back. I suppose there is a chance this is a 5-speed, but it came with a 4-speed knob, and if there is a 5th gear, I sure can't find it. If anyone recognizes this as a 5-speed, please let me know, so I can correct my info. Both have the flat bottom pan, and Type A shifter.

 

 

Short tail Dogleg 5-speed from a '78 510. Type B shifter (with the cross pin to hold the shift lever). There is a plastic bag around the end of the tail, so it doesn't show up very well. The "smooth" look of the outside case may be distinctive to the Dogleg, but I haven't seen many other Datsun trannys, so I'm not sure about that. This is the 5-speed that is the same length as the 510 4-speed or auto, and can be swapped into a 510 without changing the drive line length.

 

Long tail 5-speed with regular shift pattern from a 1980 720 truck with L20B. Type B shifter. And of course getting a trans out of a certain vehicle doesn't mean it was the original.

[datsunaholic]

That top transmission is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. It's a F4W63- telltale by the bottom plate and the exposed ribbing, but with a long extension housing. I've never seen anything like it. Extension housing looks like one off a F4W71A, except the front case isn't. 610 transmissions should look like the one below it.

[LenRobertson]

datsunaholic - Ever since I got the trans out of the 610, I just assumed it is the normal 610 4-speed. I'm looking forward to NWOleman measuring the length of his 610 trans. I just don't ever see 610s over here - not on the street, at Upull, on CL, nowhere. As I said before, the car this trans came out of looked to be a stock, unmolested 4-door. Still had steel wheels all around. I didn't notice the hole in the trans tunnel was cut out, or anything odd about the cross member. I suppose it may have been a Canadian car, but I don't know if that would make any difference. I really have to start taking lots of pictures of all the cars I see, especially ones I get parts from.

Of course, I never heard of a long tail dogleg until a couple of weeks ago when a couple of guys on this forum posted that they had them.

Is there such thing as a short tail 5-speed with conventional shift pattern (non-dogleg) that came in just one year of 4X4 truck (1980)? Or did I imagine reading of such a critter?

 

Len

[Jason]

Len, I have 2 of those short tail 5 speeds with the conventional shift pattern. They came to me out of cars already so I don't know that they came from, but, I've been told they came in the 4x4 truck from 1980. I've kept those as well as the regular short tail dog legs for use with my cars.

[LenRobertson]

Jason, thanks for confirming what I thought I remembered. I found a 1980 4X4 at Pull & Save this summer, but it had a long tail in it. I should have made a note of the build month/year, but didn't think of it at the time. I'm guessing it was too early or late to have the short tail. I'm almost certain it had an L20B, but engine &/or trans could have been swapped in.

Does the bell housing/case on the short tail version look more or less like the long tail truck 5-speed I posted the picture of?

 

Len

[Jason]

More or less Len, I'll try to remember to take a picture of it for you, I'm taking it out of storage to install in the next week or so....

[datsunaholic]

The 720s had short 71-series transmission when they switched to married transfer cases. From '80-82 they had divorced style, so the tranny was long, the only difference being the lack of a speedo drive output.

[datzenmike]

Len, I have 2 of those short tail 5 speeds with the conventional shift pattern. They came to me out of cars already so I don't know that they came from, but, I've been told they came in the 4x4 truck from 1980. I've kept those as well as the regular short tail dog legs for use with my cars.

 

Jason, I have an '80 5spd and it's long... but it's also from a 4X4. I wonder if the 2wd 5spd is short in the 720s. The reason I say this is, this kid up the road wanted help, his tranny would grind going into gear. I tried to tell him it was clutch related, BUT NO!! Took his tranny to the wreckers and got a 5spd from a Z22 4X4 and it was the wrong length. I didn't stick around.

 

The 720s had short 71-series transmission when they switched to married transfer cases. From '80-82 they had divorced style, so the tranny was long, the only difference being the lack of a speedo drive output.

 

Doug, all the Canadian 720 4X4s here are divorced with the separate T-100 transfer cases. Only seen the others in D-21s and Pathfinders. I have an '80 4X4 5spd and it is long tail, so a short shaft to the transfer case. At one time I did have a long shaft (:D) I traded for a short.

Here's the one I use now but there are longer ones and much smaller diameter.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/00270010-1.jpg[/img]"]

 

None of the Z24 motor 2 or 4wd trannys are short that I have ever seen, however the earlier '81 and '82 even the '80, may have had long or short 5spd trannys in them.

[laniadude]

My tranny looks like this, only it's a 4-speed... does this mean I can't put a shorttail without using different drivelines? If I do put a shorttail, will it change the location of where the shifter comes up into the cab? (as in does it come up into the cab closer to tha dash??) Also, the part I circled, is this supposed to mount to anything?? cuz mine isn't..

 

[LenRobertson]

I'm not familiar with trucks (other than wanting one lately, for some reason), but I think anytime you change from any long tail trans to a short tail or the other way around, you will have to lengthen or shorten the driveline. But you need to measure the trans you have to be sure which length it is - 26+" for a short tail, 31" for a long tail (approx. measurements).

The position of the shifter is different between the two trans lengths. Unless your truck has a huge hole in the floor where the lever comes through, I imagine you will have to cut the floor.

Those ears may have a use in Z cars. I should know this, but can't quite remember.

Maybe someone else will post better info. I had a late night last night, and nothing is quite in focus this morning. PBR to Merlot and back to PBR may not have been wise.

[NWOleman]

Sorry it took so long Len. Just measured and its like 31 1/2 inches long. So this is the long tail correct? I'm going to read back over this thread to see if it was said what 5 speed tranny's are a direct replacement for this one but if there isnt a answer could you tell me. Thanks, NWOleman