A87 Heads up

[CorAce]

So I got some info today that I would like some insight on. I have a late 70

[DISLEXICDIME]

a87 intake ports are the same size as l16/210 head i thought i have ran a stock a87 on a lto it was not bad i also ran a u67 head on the same block and the larger ports on the u67 felt more fun when being judged by the but dyno.

know my 1.5 port a87 with 44 mm z car intake valves on my l18 is more fun then both!;)

[sssr20det510]

how much you paying for the head ??? I know someone who has one

[CorAce]

I haven

[sssr20det510]

bg if so its my brother in law

[CorAce]

Ya, that

[sssr20det510]

ya its been a while it looked in good condition prob would want to go through it just because or at least have it checked

[Jason]

The builder is correct in his statements. For lower rpm usage, the higher velocity created by the smaller intakes, ports etc, will work better for say a daily driver. If you want more performance, then going big is the only way on any L head. You'll also have to rev the snot out of it to get the power too, say to 7200-7500 anyhow to respond to the bigger runner, ports etc .... Simple port matching will help out on the smaller stuff. With L motors it's a trade off.

[datsunaholic]

a87 intake ports are the same size as l16/210 head i thought i have ran a stock a87 on a lto it was not bad i also ran a u67 head on the same block and the larger ports on the u67 felt more fun when being judged by the but dyno.

know my 1.5 port a87 with 44 mm z car intake valves on my l18 is more fun then both!;)

 

Actually the A87 ports are in between the L16 (210) head and L20B (U67) head, with the valves being the same as the U67 except some use the small exhaust valves.

 

210: 1.125" intake ports, 1.50" intake valves, 1.30" exhaust valves

A87: 1.250" intake ports, 1.65" intake valves, 1.30" OR 1.38" exhaust valves (some vary)

U67: 1.375" intake ports, 1.65" intake valves, 1.38" exhaust valves.

 

What does that mean? The smaller valves and ports actually help the bottom end, but hurt the upper end, but how much also depends on cam selection. Generally at the bottom you get better velocity and less tendency to lean out or bog with the smaller ports, but it strangles a L20B at anything over 5000RPM. Not enough port to get the air through.

 

The big thing is that A87 heads can come in the desireable peanut-chamber design. U67 heads don't. The only big-port heads with peanut chambers are the 219/V912 SSS head (1.50" intake ports, otherwise identical to the A87 w) 1.38" exh valves), and the relatively rare peanut W58 head. But the W58 is a smog head with round exhaust ports.

[datzenmike]

The L16 210 head will bump the compression from 8.4 to about 9.23 on an L20B, so pinging will be a concern.

 

Smaller port size will definitely increase velocity and this will increase cylinder filling efficiency BUT there comes a point where the motor starts to struggle to suck air in. Just like a thick milk shake through a small straw. I would expect the tiny runners on an L16 head bolted onto a larger L20B to begin to choke off performance a lot lower than 6,000, a lot lower. For part throttle around town the smaller head would be more fuel efficient and have better throttle response but not out perform an L20B head at any speed.

 

Although the A-87 has more or less the same valve sizes as the L20B the port size is much smaller like the stock 210 head on the L16, and indeed is found mostly on the smaller L18 motor. The Peanut chamber won't up the compression of an L20B as much... about 8.9 and the peanut design is more resistant to pinging. The A-87 also has square exhaust so you will need to find an L16/18 exhaust manifold to match the shape.

 

Myself, I would just run the W-58 you have and not worry about it. Otherwise a lot of bother and expense for no gain really.

[CorAce]

The one I have now is the W58, can I tell if it

[datzenmike]

No way to tell without removing it. I had a W58 that came into my possession with a wrecker tag that said 200sx. '78-'79 200sx did have the W58 head, (probably open chamber) so my theory is that if it was replaced by the dealer under warranty they put peanuts back on. I'm thinking that if all 200sx had peanut heads stock, someone would be saying something way before now. Those exhaust liners can be removed, I did it.

 

And, no, I see no advantage except a new $25-$60 head gasket.

Edited December 3, 2009 by datzenmike

[DISLEXICDIME]

Actually the A87 ports are in between the L16 (210) head and L20B (U67) head, with the valves being the same as the U67 except some use the small exhaust valves.

 

210: 1.125" intake ports, 1.50" intake valves, 1.30" exhaust valves

A87: 1.250" intake ports, 1.65" intake valves, 1.30" OR 1.38" exhaust valves (some vary)

U67: 1.375" intake ports, 1.65" intake valves, 1.38" exhaust valves.

 

What does that mean? The smaller valves and ports actually help the bottom end, but hurt the upper end, but how much also depends on cam selection. Generally at the bottom you get better velocity and less tendency to lean out or bog with the smaller ports, but it strangles a L20B at anything over 5000RPM. Not enough port to get the air through.

 

The big thing is that A87 heads can come in the desireable peanut-chamber design. U67 heads don't. The only big-port heads with peanut chambers are the 219/V912 SSS head (1.50" intake ports, otherwise identical to the A87 w) 1.38" exh valves), and the relatively rare peanut W58 head. But the W58 is a smog head with round exhaust ports.

 

i have seen closed chamber w53 heads

[DISLEXICDIME]

i got my closed chamber w58 head off my 78 hl510 hatch back you can pull the liners and port match them to fit a square manifold i know some one who did it.

I bet that was not a fun job!

[datzenmike]

Mike, again, maybe it was dealer replaced???

 

Here's a round W58 exhaust with liner:

 

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/L%20Z%20Heads%20and%20Motors/head78L20B620W-58exhaustlinerLarge.jpg[/img]"]

 

 

Here's my pathetic attempt at transforming a round Peanut W58 to square port. The ports have 'bumps' cast into the walls to hold the liner out and away from them so they get glowing hot to burn off emissions.

 

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/L%20Z%20Heads%20and%20Motors/01300003.jpg[/img]"]

 

 

I used a U-67 square gasket to match them. You can't totally get rid of the round shape.

 

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/datzenmike/L%20Z%20Heads%20and%20Motors/01300007.jpg[/img]"]

Edited December 3, 2009 by datzenmike

[CorAce]

All the signs lead me to think that the PO got the whole motor and trans swapped right out of a 200sx some time in the late 80

[DISLEXICDIME]

maybe

[datzenmike]

These heads are called smog heads but are pretty much identical to the U67 except for the liners and shape. These same liners were used on some Z cars and nobody shuns them.

 

Can't hurt to remove the liners but you have to remove the head and take the valve out. I used a 6" cold chisel and carefully slit the liner down it's length and twisted out the pieces. 45minutes for the first one to figure it out and 15 for the other three. The valve guide pokes up through it so you have to pry the back of the liner up and over it to pull it out... sounds easy.... right! :rolleyes:

Edited December 3, 2009 by datzenmike

[DISLEXICDIME]

i have a rebuilt l20 with a a87 head i will sell you fresh out the machine shop $550

[CorAce]

Duuude whats up with that? Did they paint it pink or some thing. :blink: thats a sweet deal.

Edited December 3, 2009 by CorAce

[datsunaholic]

i have seen closed chamber w53 heads

 

 

Well, yes, since W53 heads are all closed as far as I know. Might be an oddball open one around, I think I heard someone say they had one. Might have been here, with pictures even. But W53s are all "import" heads as they were never used in a US-spec car (were used in L16s and L18s in the JDM, many of which were set up for EFI. I have both varieties) The W53 is otherwise identical to a A87. I've seen EFI-machined A87 heads too.

 

There are also N56 and N58 heads (which are identical to a W58 smog head) as well as U60 heads (though I've never seen one) and even U67 cast-iron heads (were used for propane engines- I have seen one of those but the guy wanted $300 for it)

[sssr20det510]

what about the v912 head :D

[datsunaholic]

I already covered that. It's simply the NISMO version of the 219 head. At least, the SSS 219 head. There are actually a couple 219 versions, one of which does NOT have 1.50" intake ports. It was stock on the L14. How do I know? I have one.

[datsunfish]

I ran an open chamber w58 on a L18 and it was super nice. The 210 head on the same L18 was lame as it did choke out around 4-5K. It basically goes dead and you have to shift. So technically more torque but not even good for a daily driver. 210 head on a L20b would be pathetic. The larger L series motors need to breath and when they do there really is no struggle to get where the power is. The hatred for the w58 is stupid in my opinion. Every one I have ever had ran great. Only the peanut one I have pinged on the L20b. And I have ran them through square port exhaust manifolds with no obvious issues.

I also remember someone swearing they had a open w53 recently. My friend has the stock jdm w53 with FI notches. Mine is identical to a cc a87. I also have an open a87 on a l16 and thats just lame.

So basically the best stock option is the w58 closed chamber IMO. Big valves,ports and usually newer than most other heads.

[datzenmike]

Yup. They were used after '77 and the last one was on the '80 720 and A-10.