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E12-92 Retard? or No retard.


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I asked the same question on hybrid z but no help. 
since I'm not experienced with timing and ignition, thought I'd ask you guys, otherwise I would have solved it myself already. 

so question is, What does the E12-92 do when the connector is DISCONNECTED?  (83 280zx)

I'm going carbs sooner later and a lot of EFI stuff is going to be deleted.(but the ignition part is going to be kept)  therefore I'm guessing the E12-90's not going to get signal.  

maybe I could push 12V with a switch and make it believe the EFI is still there? 

I'm really confused. 

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Mine is an E12-93

L24Eignition003Large.jpg

 

 

The E12-80 is very simple inside. A power transistor that draws current through the coil and with a magnetic trigger from the rotor/stator shuts off, collapsing the coil magnetic field and causing a spark. There is also a circuit that shuts off flow if the ignition is ON but the motor not running to prevent heating up the coil.

 

 

E12-80EImodule.jpg

 

The E12-93 is vastly different

E12-93EImodule001Large.jpg

 

All I know is someone on The Realm had a matchbox dizzy and when revving his L20B the timing light showed the timing dropping 18-20 degrees in the negative direction. It was theorized that the vacuum advance was backwards, advance weights on backwards and several other things. Eventually it came up that it had a zx E12-93 module and the 'light came on'. This was used on 280zx L28 CAS (crank angle sensor) motors including the L24 on the later Maxima and allowed very precise timing adjustments by the ECU, mostly for emissions reductions. It might also have had the ability to selectively retard the timing to reduce knock.

 

Used in place of an E12-80 the E12-93 has some strange effects on timing, not well understood.

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I once had a 98 frontier and that bugger was $160+ to replace, i cracked it open and resoldered the "tiniest" wires you have ever seen. I had to scrape away some clear goo and then put it back afterwards, but I remain convinced they made it delicate hoping vibration would eventually cause a need for replacement.

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Mine is an E12-93

 

 

 

The E12-80 is very simple inside. A power transistor that draws current through the coil and with a magnetic trigger from the rotor/stator shuts off, collapsing the coil magnetic field and causing a spark. There is also a circuit that shuts off flow if the ignition is ON but the motor not running to prevent heating up the coil.

 

 

 

 

The E12-93 is vastly different

 

 

All I know is someone on The Realm had a matchbox dizzy and when revving his L20B the timing light showed the timing dropping 18-20 degrees in the negative direction. It was theorized that the vacuum advance was backwards, advance weights on backwards and several other things. Eventually it came up that it had a zx E12-93 module and the 'light came on'. This was used on 280zx L28 CAS (crank angle sensor) motors including the L24 on the later Maxima and allowed very precise timing adjustments by the ECU, mostly for emissions reductions. It might also have had the ability to selectively retard the timing to reduce knock.

 

Used in place of an E12-80 the E12-93 has some strange effects on timing, not well understood.

 

Well, I have the E12-92 (no mistake.  they made E12-80, 92, 92A and 93 if I'm correct..) 

I wonder if thats any different (I suppose it is) 

 

also, Even though I do not have a timing light, with the E12-92, side connectors disconnected, the RPM drops about 200~300 Cold and hot. 

 

I guess I could check the ECU side signal with a multimeter to see if its constant or variable.  

 

You "could" convert to the chevy hei module at a cost of about 25 if i'm not mistaken. But expect to need to re-time stuff if you do.

^ does that work with 280zx?  digital tach and everything. 

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and another thing is. I'm keeping all the sensors since I'm too lazy to strip down the EFI harness...  
I'm hoping dual SU + EFI ECU + IGN will somehow magically work togather since most sensors are on the block side and not
necessary the intake manifold side ...    

Only if i had the 79' It would be much simpler with holes for mechanical fuel pump and simple E12-80....  

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^the thread is another typical hybrid z "you should do this instead of what your trying to do so I'm guna put some biased info on what i want you to do" crap. 

 

it doesn't show me jack shit as to installing HEI on a 83 dist in place of E12-92.   

 

 

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^the thread is another typical hybrid z "you should do this instead of what your trying to do so I'm guna put some biased info on what i want you to do" crap. 

 

it doesn't show me jack shit as to installing HEI on a 83 dist in place of E12-92.   

 

 

pretty simple man, you get schematics for your car and match up the labels on that simple diagram that was found in 4 secs on google. Sorry I bothered... wont make that mistake again

 

maybe you mistook friendliness for talking condescending or sarcastic

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pretty sad response man...

well, thanks for giving me a alternate plan. 

sorry, I should have said "No thanks. I would like to work the E12-9x out for use on SU carbs" and end it there.

But I was pissed off b/c I hate when people mislead from what was asked on a thread...  I'm talking about E12-9x &8x series. specifically and how it may / may not work. 

 

Imagine someone reaching the same issue and look at this post with their hopes up. Would you want to be stuck in yet ANOTHER post about converting to HEI that has been covered many times before?  

 

I was tired of that, therefor I made this thread. other wise why would I post in the first place if I could solve my own problem? 

I'm not an electrical genie or master of projects. But not going out of what was asked should be common sence to keep useless threads to minimum on ratsun.

 

or If using SU-carbs with E12-9x is such a bad idea that this thread should not be used as reference, then you might as well post a full list of why I should go HEI, other wise if couple of sentence and a link to google is all you got, PM me. I'll be happy to be convinced to go HEI if it sounds reasonable enough. 

 

 

I appreciate your friendliness, and I apoligize for such post. 

 

 

 

   

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I can see you're frustrated but asking for help and info will often bring out the best in those willing to share. Even if misguided or wrong direction, it should be accepted in the spirit with which it was given. All info is usefull to someone who may read this post.

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I asked the same question on hybrid z but no help. 

since I'm not experienced with timing and ignition, thought I'd ask you guys, otherwise I would have solved it myself already. 

 

so question is, What does the E12-92 do when the connector is DISCONNECTED?  (83 280zx)

 

I'm going carbs sooner later and a lot of EFI stuff is going to be deleted.(but the ignition part is going to be kept)  therefore I'm guessing the E12-90's not going to get signal.  

 

maybe I could push 12V with a switch and make it believe the EFI is still there? 

 

I'm really confused. 

To answer this - you need schematics, if you can find a "theory of operation" for E12-92 from nissan/datsun somehow it would say what it does.

 

You are going to SU's but want to keep an ignition system that does or doesn't work with EFI to operate? You need to establish whether the ignition relies on input from ECU derived from EFI feedback/signals. - This might be answered by reading schematics. schematics for engine bay, ECU, and that ignition module if you can get it.

 

So you want to find out if the part number module you "specifically" have retards or advances or changes timing at all.

 

http://www.datsunzgarage.com/engine/ - scroll to the "SEVENTH" part. Discusses converting a z ign to a zx ign system.

 

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/electrical-s30/32704-77-dizzy-e12-80-module.html - this forum discusses what you've stated already that you don't want to do. I'm posting it in case you decide to revisit later for a cost comparison and for the info.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=datsun+e12-92+ignition+module&biw=1441&bih=915&tbm=isch&tbnid=-_iNN-HyEp6EoM:&imgrefurl=http://www.zcarz.us/TechnicalInformationPageEngine%26BodyElectrical.htm&docid=J7ElaUQ8W1EctM&imgurl=http://www.zcarz.us/WIRING%252520A%252520280ZX%252520DISTRIBUTOR%252520INTO%252520A%252520240Z.jpg&w=449&h=302&ei=3TDkUfrQFMi6iwLljoCYCQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:3,s:0,i:88&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=173&tbnw=256&start=0&ndsp=24&tx=145&ty=95#imgdii=-_iNN-HyEp6EoM%3A%3Bu-p3mPvYStB8eM%3B-_iNN-HyEp6EoM%3A

 

the above link demonstrates a 280Z schematic, and hopefully some insight as to why you should be looking at the schematic for your car.

 

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/attachments/electrical-s30/31308d1251167876-77-dizzy-e12-80-module-after.gif - this link (although unreasonably small) demonstrates just how simple your ignition system can be, using the part number module that Mike recommended.

 

Finally, if reading/comprehending this stuff just isn't clicking then get a friend near you that can read/comprehend it to assist you.

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Perhaps I should preface this by saying that I've been running an E12-93 on my 240Z with SU carbs for years and more than 5,000 miles now with great results.  I have a small collection of E12-80, E12-92 and E12-93 modules.  They all work happily on my car, as long as they are wired the right way.  I keep a couple in the glovebox because I had an E12-80 go out on me years ago, which was the impetus to try an E12-93 I happened to have pulled from a ZX or Maxima.  I didn't want to go scrounging through some more junkyards looking for another E12-80 to replace the one that died, so I started doing internet research in probably late 2007 to see if I could make the E12-93 work.

 

Here's a copy/paste from another forum where I talked about this:

 

I had tried simply installing the module in place of the E12-80, but the timing retarded quite a bit. No amount of timing adjustment (turning the distributor body) would get the car to run like it should.

Based on the experiences of some members over on the HybridZ boards, and reading from a few other web sites, I found out what those little prongs on the side of the E12-92/3 ignition modules might be for.

For example, let's quote Bryan Little (http://www.datsunzgarage.com/engine) for a second.
 

 
* E12-80 1 top plug (2 terminals). Used on 1979-7/81 ZX, Maximas, B210.
This module works best on carbureted motors. The dwell curve is preset into the module, it only needs the distributor and coil to function.

* E12-92 1 top plug, 1 side plug. Used on 8/81-83 ZX's, Maximas.
I found when using a E12-92 in place of a E12-80 it automatically retarded the timing 8 degrees. Even setting the time up 8 degrees made my engine feel sluggish, so I don't recommend it on carbureted motors. According to the shop manual, the 2nd plug on the side is for a spark advance signal from the brain and other sensors. Some claim this module is identical to the E12-80. Not on my engine unfortunately.

"Okay, so substituting an E12-92 or E12-93 module pulls off timing, but the prongs on the side get a signal from the computer to advance timing? Right? Did I read that correctly?" I thought to myself.

Easy enough to theorize what happened next. All I had to do was run a wire with 12 volts (spliced from positive post on coil) to one of the pins on the side of the E12-93 module, and gained back 5º of timing (iirc). It's wired to the I pin, but the W pin does the same thing.

After that, I simply adjusted the distributor to give me 18º btdc @ idle, and it has run flawlessly for over 1,500 miles (that was 2008, now it is 5,000+). Pulls cleanly to 8K RPM too (although I do have the head and cam to make it there).

Well, there you have it. Now anyone can run the E12-92 or E12-93 modules which have been completely worthless up until now.

 

Without one of the plugs getting power, my engine runs like crap and no amount of futzing or turning the dizzy will help.  With one plug wired up I can't tell the difference between it and a good E12-80.  I'm still amazed that others haven't tried fiddling with the later matchbox modules with side plugs.

 

Does that help clear anything up?

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Perhaps I should preface this by saying that I've been running an E12-93 on my 240Z with SU carbs for years and more than 5,000 miles now with great results.  I have a small collection of E12-80, E12-92 and E12-93 modules.  They all work happily on my car, as long as they are wired the right way.  I keep a couple in the glovebox because I had an E12-80 go out on me years ago, which was the impetus to try an E12-93 I happened to have pulled from a ZX or Maxima.  I didn't want to go scrounging through some more junkyards looking for another E12-80 to replace the one that died, so I started doing internet research in probably late 2007 to see if I could make the E12-93 work.

 

Here's a copy/paste from another forum where I talked about this:

 

 

Without one of the plugs getting power, my engine runs like crap and no amount of futzing or turning the dizzy will help.  With one plug wired up I can't tell the difference between it and a good E12-80.  I'm still amazed that others haven't tried fiddling with the later matchbox modules with side plugs.

 

Does that help clear anything up?

 

 

Only half clear to me. :lol:  What happens if you wire 12 volts to both the W and the I terminals.

 

 

To answer this - you need schematics, if you can find a "theory of operation" for E12-92 from nissan/datsun somehow it would say what it does.

 

You are going to SU's but want to keep an ignition system that does or doesn't work with EFI to operate? You need to establish whether the ignition relies on input from ECU derived from EFI feedback/signals. - This might be answered by reading schematics. schematics for engine bay, ECU, and that ignition module if you can get it.

 

So you want to find out if the part number module you "specifically" have retards or advances or changes timing at all.

 

http://www.datsunzgarage.com/engine/ - scroll to the "SEVENTH" part. Discusses converting a z ign to a zx ign system.

 

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/electrical-s30/32704-77-dizzy-e12-80-module.html - this forum discusses what you've stated already that you don't want to do. I'm posting it in case you decide to revisit later for a cost comparison and for the info.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=datsun+e12-92+ignition+module&biw=1441&bih=915&tbm=isch&tbnid=-_iNN-HyEp6EoM:&imgrefurl=http://www.zcarz.us/TechnicalInformationPageEngine%26BodyElectrical.htm&docid=J7ElaUQ8W1EctM&imgurl=http://www.zcarz.us/WIRING%252520A%252520280ZX%252520DISTRIBUTOR%252520INTO%252520A%252520240Z.jpg&w=449&h=302&ei=3TDkUfrQFMi6iwLljoCYCQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:3,s:0,i:88&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=173&tbnw=256&start=0&ndsp=24&tx=145&ty=95#imgdii=-_iNN-HyEp6EoM%3A%3Bu-p3mPvYStB8eM%3B-_iNN-HyEp6EoM%3A

 

the above link demonstrates a 280Z schematic, and hopefully some insight as to why you should be looking at the schematic for your car.

 

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/attachments/electrical-s30/31308d1251167876-77-dizzy-e12-80-module-after.gif - this link (although unreasonably small) demonstrates just how simple your ignition system can be, using the part number module that Mike recommended.

 

Finally, if reading/comprehending this stuff just isn't clicking then get a friend near you that can read/comprehend it to assist you.

So If I'm getting this correctly, the 2 terminals are both Positive lead coming from water temperture switch and throttle valve switch. 

 

and blue, thats what i thought...   since both switches are heavily EFI dependant, adding to connector will fake the 92 to thinking that the Water Temp is high, or the car is at.... idle? well thats what schematic says... water temp seems reasonable but idle switch seems weird... 

 

but with that said mike, if the car is at higher temperture and idling, both connecters will get power.    though, I'm not familiar or have any clue how that affects the retard, I guess I just gotta try the 12v thing to one connector once I get my parts togather for SU rebuild. 

 

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