Drum brake hoses used for rear T fitting?

[josh817]

The T block on the rear axle, the one with the flexible hose so the axle can move, I was informed I can replace just the hose, and from the looks of things this is true.

I can't find anything at Napa, OReilly's, or Rockauto for that particular hose. It appears that it has a male end (going into the T block) and a female end (connecting to the hardline from the front), which leads me to believe I can use a standard drum brake hose, probably from the front drums?

If I can't do this, does someone have a source for just the hose?

Needing to confirm before I purchase. Thank you!

[DanielC]

The brake lines on a 521 are SAE.  The steel line is 3/16, the flare nuts are 3/8-24.  It should be pretty easy to find.

[mklotz70]

I'm pretty sure you can buy generic braided SS lines from Speedway and get the SAE adapters for them.  I did that with a local place here for the rear line on the NL320 years ago..

 

I don't know that these are exactly what you need, but it will give you a better idea about what you're looking for.

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Straight-3-8-Inch-24-IFF-to-AN-3-Male-Adapter,32433.html

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Braided-Stainless-AN-18-Inch-Brake-Line,32632.html

[josh817]

I'm pretty sure you can buy generic braided SS lines from Speedway and get the SAE adapters for them.  I did that with a local place here for the rear line on the NL320 years ago..

 

I don't know that these are exactly what you need, but it will give you a better idea about what you're looking for.

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Straight-3-8-Inch-24-IFF-to-AN-3-Male-Adapter,32433.html

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Braided-Stainless-AN-18-Inch-Brake-Line,32632.html

That is indeed beautiful. Now the only question becomes is the SS line female on both ends? And then the line on the truck, female on both ends as well? I was hoping it would be male/female so I could use a standard drum brake hose.... From a picture Wayno had posted:

 

Suggests female on both ends. In that case, that SS line and fittings would work.

 

Sounds trivial, my question, however my 521 is my only daily driver so I have to have everything lined up before I dismantle, less I plan on being swamped for days.

 

Thank you guys

[mklotz70]

You'll have to crawl under the truck to double check, but I think the top end of the hose was female because the hardline from the frame screws into it.  I used a bulkhead fitting.  On the SS lines, you can get any adapter you want/need to put on the end.  The hose itself uses an AN type fitting. 

[josh817]

Just an FYI for those who want a replacement hose I found these searching through the NAPA site.

 

 

If the line is male on one end and female on the other then this

PN: UP 11146
$14
Male 3/8"-24 on one end and female 3/8"-24 which is 18" long

 

If the line is female on both ends then these two will suffice. The difference looks like one is made for clips to hold it and the other looks standard. I don't know which would be best to use. I will go with the clip one
PN: UP 36582

$12.50

Both ends female 3/8"-24 and 11.75" long
or
PN: UP 36975

$11.50

Both ends female 3/8"-24 and 12.25" long

It isn't telling me if they are 45º inverted flare but if I remember correctly, standard flare IS 45º inverted so I guess I can assume that is what they will be.

 

Since I like everything in order before I disassemble, I will order both a Male-Female and a Female-Female line so they have it on shelf for me if I am surprised with what I find.

[josh817]

AHHHHHHH yet more confusion preventing me from going forward. After looking at my Wilwood master, I think I realized what my problem was before, where the brake line wasn't sealing. I noticed it comes with an adapter which brought this to my attention...

You can have male or female threads, IE you screw it into the other fitting or ONTO the other fitting. But then you can have male or female inverted flare. So for instance on these fittings, you have MALE-MALE on one end and then MALE-FEMALE on the other end...

 

I have come to the conclusion that on the hardline connection, the rubber hose is FEMALE thread, so the hardline screws INTO the fitting. From what I have found though, the T connection side will be MALE THREAD, so it screws INTO the T, not ONTO. Alright that's fine, I'll just get one of the hoses I listed, right? But hold on a second, I looks on ebay because I can't find a detailed picture of any of this shit to tell me what the FLARE genders are.

That's why I pointed out the Wilwood problem, because the Wilwood has FEMALE threads (so the hardline screws INTO it) but the flare was FEMALE too, so the hardline had female flare as well, and the two didn't seal. Now with the adapter they provided, it will screw into the master, and then it has FEMALE threads (again so the hardline can screw INTO it) but flare on the adapter is MALE so that the brake line will fit to it.

So here is an ebay splitter for a B-whatever Datsun:

 

And you can see on the left is where a brake line would screw into and on the right is where the hose would go.... But you see, the left is FEMALE threads - MALE flare. The right **looks** like it is FEMALE threads - FEMALE flare. Which means the Napa PN I provided

 

Won't work because the MALE thread that would screw into the splitter (the pic on the right) has a FEMALE flare, and two female flares won't seal. Who the hell knows what flare is on the other end of the hose.


This is such a trivial fucking moment right now it's pissing me off. Someone please help me with the terminology because when I see IFF (inverted flare female) I see something like the right side of the hose, and when I see IFM (inverted flare male) I see something like the left side of the hose, as in "does it screw into or onto". I don't know how they decide whether it will be a concave flare or a convex flare though!

I'd like to think that if it is screwing INTO the other side, like a brake line into a master, or this hose into a T Splitter, then the brake line/hose would have a FEMALE flare with a MALE thread, EVERY TIME. Like wise I'd like to think that the receiving end would have a MALE flare with a FEMALE thread, EVERY TIME.

Is that correct?

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, this is getting very frustrating. It would be different if I were able to take her apart and wait a week or two for things to come in once I can see what I have, but that's not the case.

[DanielC]

This should be a simple fix.  the brake lines on a stock 521 are all SAE, 3/8-24 threaded fittings.

 

I will take a look at one of my 521 trucks later today.   PM me if I do not get back to you by this evening.

[josh817]

Thank you Daniel. Like I said.... I daily drive this bitch and I know when I take that hose off it won't be in good enough shape to go back on so I HAVE to have my shit together. I can't wait for online parts to come in if I screw up. I will order that hose from Napa and look inside the FEMALE end to see what flare it has.

This is basically just a screwed up confusion between flare seats. The male/female denomination of fittings seems to describe the thread, not the flare seat. I'm not sure how people build their brake systems when there isn't anything indicating the seat (whether it protrudes or sinks in) other than visually.

A perfect example of what I mean:

How do you know unless there is a standard, like I mentioned before
"I'd like to think that if it is screwing INTO the other side, like a brake line into a master, or this hose into a T Splitter, then the brake line/hose would have a FEMALE flare with a MALE thread, EVERY TIME. Like wise I'd like to think that the receiving end would have a MALE flare with a FEMALE thread, EVERY TIME."

[DanielC]

I am not 100 5 on this, but I think this hose will work.

The end of this hose, on the left, screws into the "T" block on the rear axle housing.  it is sealed with a copper washer, and does not depend on the flare to seal.  The right end of the hose slips in to a hex hole on a clip, that slides over a tab welded on the bed of the truck, and another clip then fits into the groove to keep the hose in place.  A standard 3/8 -24 flare nut screws in to this end, and uses the flare to seal.

[josh817]

Thank you so much, Daniel.

For curiosities sake, any knowledge on my previous post (post #9)?

[DanielC]

I am not exactly sure what your question is.  The male threaded end of the new Raybestos hose i have does have a female flare, but I do not think it is used for sealing.  

[mklotz70]

Josh.....part of your confusion is that the end that you're calling male/male is actually a male -3 AN fitting.  Look at the web page you posted......it lists fitting end A and fitting end B.  The -3 AN end mates up to a generic SS line you can get from Summit and a handful of other places.  You get the line in the length you want, then put whichever fittings on the end that you need.  Very easy to mate metric to SAE this way, but they're more money typically.

 

take a look at this.....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-220-12168

 

enlarge the pic and you'll see that all 4 fittings have the -3 AN ends on them, but the other side is different.

[josh817]

Basically, is the statement in bold font true? The question is about flare seats, the part that would seal if you didn't use a copper washer. Is there anything denoting whether the seat flares outwards or inwards. The example shown in post #9 where the part listed online for those fittings says IFF (Inverted Female Flare) however it is the THREADS that are female, with no mention as to whether the seat goes inward or outward.

I'm trying to learn the etiquette here.... If there isn't anything in typing saying which way the flare seat faces, then I have no idea what I'm buying. But people who build their own brake systems don't seem to ever discuss this problem? Which leads me to wonder, if it's a male fitting, like a hose or like a hard brake line, will it always have a concave/indented flare seat (talking about Inverted flares only) and vise-versa for female fittings, will they always have convex/cone/protruding flare seats?

 

It APPEARS that every female fitting will have a cone/protruding flare seat, except for on hard mount items like master cylinders and this T connection, they seem to have female threads with a concave/indented flare seat... It APPEARS that every male thread has a concave/indented flare seat. This would make perfect sense so I can go out and buy ANY type of inverted 45º flare male fitting and it would fit up with ANY inverted female fitting.

 

Doesn't look like it works that way necessarily, when you have shit that is female threads with an indented flare seat, because then when I have something like a hardline brake fitting that is male threaded with an indented flare as well, I can't use a copper washer and the seats don't match, leaving you screwed. Now when you have things like this rubber hose, which has a flat face for a copper washer to seal on, then you can disregard the direction of the flare seat.

 

There has to be some sort of method to the madness. Obviously there is a method as to whether or not the threads are male or female because it will say IFF or IFM, whats the method for knowing the direction of the seat itself?


MKlotz70
So is it correct to assume that all IFM's have an indented flare seat and that the only reason why I saw a male threaded fitting with a protruding flare seat is because it's AN (and they may have their own way separate way of doing seats)? If so, then I can also assume that all IFF's have protruding flare seats?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To clarify what I mean by indented and protruding seats:

I would call this an IFF (inverted flare female) with a protruding seat:

 

I would call this an IFM with an indented flare seat:


So the short version: for all non-AN (so anything metric/SAE) brake fittings, are all the IFF's protruding flare seats, and all the IFM's indented flare seats?
 

 

Thank you guys for having patience. I have the hose replacement figured out, just trying to learn the terminology and system for brake fittings. I plan on doing all of the brake lines in my Z. Once I figure out this system, I plan on sticking with only one thread/flare size unless if I can't avoid it, in that case I will sort through adapters..

[mklotz70]

I'm about to pass out, but I'll give it another shot here.

 

The adapter in post #9 .....the red circled end will have the "convex" shape inside.  That end is "Fitting End A" in the specs on the web page you posted a pic of.  The "Fitting End B" is the -3AN type....it is not a male version of the inverted flare.  It's a completely different flaring type.  Military created it for quick connects on aircraft so they could disassemble/reassemble lines.  At least that's my basic understanding.  They're used a lot in racing applications where they have to connect/disconnect the lines repeatedly.

 

In your post #7....the 2 silver fittings.....the male/male end is a -3AN flare....mates with the generic SS line like I said previously. It is not made to mate with any inverted flare....male or female. The male/female fitting(same pic) is a Male inverter flare....or the IFM. 

 

In your post #9....the brass fitting at the bottom on the left......that is what the Female inverted flare will look like.....the IFF.   The brass fitting on the right....not sure, could be for a bubble flare.....it's not an inverted flare fitting. 

[josh817]

I'm about to pass out, but I'll give it another shot here.

 

The adapter in post #9 .....the red circled end will have the "convex" shape inside.  That end is "Fitting End A" in the specs on the web page you posted a pic of.  The "Fitting End B" is the -3AN type....it is not a male version of the inverted flare.  It's a completely different flaring type.  Military created it for quick connects on aircraft so they could disassemble/reassemble lines.  At least that's my basic understanding.  They're used a lot in racing applications where they have to connect/disconnect the lines repeatedly.

 

In your post #7....the 2 silver fittings.....the male/male end is a -3AN flare....mates with the generic SS line like I said previously. It is not made to mate with any inverted flare....male or female. The male/female fitting(same pic) is a Male inverter flare....or the IFM. 

 

In your post #9....the brass fitting at the bottom on the left......that is what the Female inverted flare will look like.....the IFF.   The brass fitting on the right....not sure, could be for a bubble flare.....it's not an inverted flare fitting. 

It's alright Mklotz70, thank you for information. I don't want to sound rude, I had posted those images as examples to describe what I was talking about. I wasn't curious about individual fittings, as there are many fittings in a system and I can't ask about all them. I was more curious about the assumed direction of the flare seat, and I'm going to go with what I had already stated, that all IFF's have the protruding seat and all IFM's have the indented seats. When I hit some sort of special case I will go from there.

 

Thanks for the info, guys! Quick responses too. :thumbup: 

[mklotz70]

hmmm.....did you edit post #14?  The original email notification doesn't show any of the stuff from the MKlotz70 down and I didn't see it on here last night........so I didn't see any "statement" last night, only questions.

 

Now that there's a statement there, yes, you are correct.  I only tried to clarify the -3AN fitting because your #7 post referred to it as a male/male inverted flare.

 

Sounds like you have it sorted out and I'm the one confusing things. 

 

I'll leave with this......two pics of the SS line with adapters replacing the rear brake line on the NL320 I had.  The upper fitting is a -3AN to IFF (bulkhead style mounting) and the bottom is a -3AN to IFM with a copper washer(although it doesn't show up well in the pic)