280zx: Hearing a chunk noise while starting, replaced starter-no change in behavior

[Jomz Shakes]

I have a 1982 280zx n/a 5 speed, had a intermittent problem thats been getting progressively worse, now its bad. when starting it seems as if one part of the flywheel has messed up teeth, some starts will be fine, but some will hit a area on the flywheel that lets the starter even spin freely "once it chunks to that area the car hesitates hard to start and often doesn't."

 

I had a starter laying around so i threw it on - no difference

 

i have another clutch and flywheel laying around here,its an oem one from a turbo 280zx, "im not sure what year i think its a 79'?",

the flywheel says "T50" on it and "7721A".

 

The guy who sold me the clutch/flywheel told me it may not fit onto my engine, he said something about buying a "collar" of of some type of 240sx??

 

Any help would be appreciated, Im new to switching parts from one type of a car to others.

[datzenmike]

The start signal from the ignition switch may be weak. Try using a remote starter switch that shops use so a mechanic can turn the motor over from under the hood or making a jumper wire from the battery and touch it directly to the starter solenoid. Try several starts and see if the problem persists or goes away. If it starts well repeatedly then the wiring and connectors (maybe even the ignition switch) are not making good contact or are old. Instead of 12 volts from the battery the solenoid is maybe getting 5 or 6 and has trouble holding itself in and keeping the starter going.

 

I had a random starter problem on my 710 and I used this weak start signal from the ignition switch, (it was about 6 volts) to trigger a relay that fed the full 12 volts from the battery to the solenoid. Never did it again.

 

 

 

The turbo uses a different size diameter clutch and flywheel to hold it. Yours is 225mm across, the turbo uses a 240mm. The different pressure plates require a different size release bearing holder or collar. Your 225mm collar won't properly work the larger 240mm pressure plate.

[Jomz Shakes]

Okay used a jumper wire from positive to the solenoid and no change in behavior,

the starter will start but sometimes will rev up like its not touching the flywheel sometimes,

like 1 in 3 starts is like this

 

you think my flywheels busted?

[Guest 510kamikazifreak]

When it does it..

Spin the motor over by hand(large socket or what ever you may have)about a 1/4 turn or so

and if you get past the possible flat spot on the fly wheel you will know.

[Jomz Shakes]

i took off the starter to view it, where do i put the socket to turn over the engine?

[Datsun Bob]

Remove the starter and you can see the teeth on the flywheel through the hole . Have someone rotate the motor with a socket on the crankshaft bolt (Its much easier if the plugs are out so there is no compression ) and look at each tooth . If any are chewed up or missing its the flywheel . You should be able to find a 225 mm flywheel in your area but if not i have them for $20 + shipping

[Guest 510kamikazifreak]

Crank pulley bolt

[Jomz Shakes]

okay just took of the splashgaurd and turned over by the blue crankshaft pulley, i saw thru the hole where the starter was some areas not chewed up at all and some where there just a little gold coler exposed on the outer edge of the flywheel teeth "edge closest to starter, no teeth are even close to looking damaged damaged, definately no missing teeth, lust the corners are shaved down showing gold on some areas

[datzenmike]

Maybe the other starter solenoid was bad too. Bench test it. Put jumper wires on the starter and 12 volts to the solenoid. The starter gear should move outward and spin.

[Jomz Shakes]

okay too off the starter again and bench tested it, it would extend out all the way but not spin sometimes, i put some penetrating oil down the spindle and then bench tested it at high revs a couple times, after installing, i turned it over 15 times with no problems. i will monitor from now on and keep posted if goes bad, im guessing the other solenoid needed to wake up a little bit

[datzenmike]

Funny, but today the starter stayed on after I started the goon. Just the starter spinning, the solenoid isn't in causing the gear to engage the flywheel, just humming along. I stuck my key across the terminals so the solenoid clicked in and it stopped but at the lights on the way home it was spinning again. This was put on new the day before I bought the car and it's a Bosch piece of shit re-build. I have about 8 Nissan ones collected over the years and that's what is going in there. I miss my Maxima gear reduction starter anyway.

[I'm BLUE]

Are your battery cables new ?

If not ... then back track and test ( voltage drop) as well as visual inspecting just replace them!

Flat spots happen in z starters ALL the time.

Get a set of replacement brushes and bushings and replace in one or the other.

 

Starter Mechanical gear/spring solenoids go bad often ... electrical starter solenoids can short out as well and cause even charging issues on newer car.

 

Flywheel ring gear replacements are avaiable. Usually welded in a few spots. Cut off and weld a new one on ( . Or replace with a good known flywheel ( common sense and economical) .

 

More likely than not ... your ring gear even worn ... will probably be good enough. Look everywhere else first :)

 

Best luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jomz Shakes]

Problem persisted when it was cold this morning, here's a pic of the worst part of the flywheel http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s417/jomzshakes/?action=view&current=CAM00117.jpg

 

[Jomz Shakes]

Should I put a multi meter to the solenoid while its being used to see if it gets 12 volts??

Do you guys think the flywheel ring gear is fried?

Should I put some high temp black grease along the teeth to help it for now?

How do I check the leads to the ignition switch are they behind the ignition lock cylinder or do those words go to a ignition switch box then lead to the starter?

 

[I'm BLUE]

Problem persisted when it was cold this morning, here's a pic of the worst part of the flywheel http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s417/jomzshakes/?action=view&current=CAM00117.jpg

 

Flywheel looks fine. Worn but arnt they all ? ;)

 

Should I put a multi meter to the solenoid while its being used to see if it gets 12 volts??

Do you guys think the flywheel ring gear is fried?

Should I put some high temp black grease along the teeth to help it for now?

How do I check the leads to the ignition switch are they behind the ignition lock cylinder or do those words go to a ignition switch box then lead to the starter?

 

Again ... are your battery cables new or used? Stripped back and cleaned or dirty? Very old battery cables "rot" through the insulation.

 

*Flywheel is good f thats the worst part ...

*Don't not put ANY grease on the flywheel teeth. ( ive never heard of this)

*Checking the ignition switch?

yes ... ignition switch .... unscrew it from behind the ignition lock cylinder ( if need to replace) Power one side and ground the other ( on multimeter) .. map each wire and probe ... then record. ( generic statement ). Ignition switchs fall apart on zcars in generql that i have seen.

 

*** Again ... battery cables? ?????????? ****

 

Take pictures and post them of each of these components and post them

*battery cables

*starter/connections

*ignition switch ( electrical portion leading to as well)

 

 

[datzenmike]

Pull wire off solenoid and check it with meter while in the START position. Should read close to 12 volts. Mine was 6 or 7 and wouldn't always crank the motor over. Had to turn the key on several times.

[Jomz Shakes]

-battery cables are definitely original, will post pics in a.m..

- problem is happening 2/3 starts now, sounds bad - might stop driving it for now

-will check volts of wire leading to starter solenoid and post

[Jomz Shakes]

 

 

http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1050.photobucket.com/albums/s417/jomzshakes/CAM00130.mp4

 

Here's a bid of my multi meter tapped onto the small wire that goes to the ignition wire not the big positive wire. Showed about 9 volts during start up

[Jomz Shakes]

 

[Jomz Shakes]

Do you think I should change my battery cables?

[datzenmike]

Those will work..... but they are also the most prone to failure with age. The best are the molded ones from th factory or from a wrecking yard.

[Jomz Shakes]

Okay im back on this problem. i cant figure out my starting issue. ive just replaced the battery cables and ground down the contacts. no change in behavior......

 

Im guessing my starter has a flat spot? can i rebuild it? how can i test if the starters busted,like i've said i swapped with a old starter i had lying around. it had not been tested either, could have been bad was found left on a parts car after an engine swap.

 

When i bench tested the starter and it would poke and a spin really fast, and some times just poke out and not spin.

 

it has 12 volts to the starter and 9 volts to the lead wire that activates the starter.

 

when i jump the 2 leads on the starter with a screw driver, i hear the starter poke out and spin but it doesnt hit the the flywheel gear at all, it just revs up.

 

the grounds have been triple checked.

 

i havent gone to the ignition switch under the steering wheel, do i need to test this and how do i?

 

Or should i just buy a starter?

[metalmonkey47]

If you've thrown another starter on it and it did the same thing, that's not likely your issue.

 

 

 

Unhook the wire from the solenoid, have someone hold the switch to 'start' and look for 12V.

[San Maru]

Agreed. Check voltage as mentioned. If you arent getting 12 volts at the starter then have your battery 'load tested.'

[datzenmike]

I think MM is referring to the start signal from the ignition switch. The starter will (probably) have a good 12 v from the battery as the cable is large and only a few feet long. The start signal on the other hand has to follow the fender back from the battery along the length of the dash inside the car, to the ignition switch, back out the same way it came in and down to the engine harness and to the starter.A distance I roughly worked out once to about 12 feet and half of that about a 12 gauge and half about 16 gauge and includes about half a dozen connections on almost 40 year old wires.

 

I had intermittent starter operation with clicks and clunks on my 710. I traced this down to a 6 volt start signal on the wire to the starter solenoid. To fix I used the weak signal to work a relay that supplies a powerful 12volt from the battery. Has never once done this again.