4G63T 510 & Intro

[jeffball610]

So this is my first post here on Ratsun. I've been hanging out on The 510 Realm for quite some time and thought I would spread my wings and see what some other people are doing. I currently live in Las Vegas and I'm into Import cars for the most part. It's my Import roots that brought me to this project. I first saw a 510 in Sport Compact Car Magazine's Ultimate Street Car Challenge. I loved the lines and how simple the car was. I'm also a fan of compactness (made that up) and efficient cars. So, naturally the 510 was a great choice being small, simple and very customizable.

In October of 2005 I picked up my fairly clean and nearly complete car from Jeff Winter of Rallye-Sport in Westminster, CO.

It was a pretty clean and fairly rust free car, but with no title. Other stipulations on the sale were to return the engine and tranny (that I wouldn't use) and other unwanted items to him. A very fair deal for only $800.

I had a history with Mitsubishis, and loved the 2.0L Turbo motor from the Eclipse/Talon/Laser. The 4G63. After some searching on the internet and some junk yard measuring, I decided that this would be what was going into the heart of my 510. There was only one other person on the planet that I could find that was swapping the 4G63 into the 510. He has since sold his car and the project was never finished.

 

For those unfamiliar with the 4G63, it's a stout DOHC 2.0L Turbo engine with it's roots all the way back to the 70's and continued into the Mitsubishi Evolution until 2008. Stock block Eclipse versions of this motor have held over 400whp and some have held 500whp for a short time. My version of this combination will only be using 300+whp and a 7-bolt design. With smaller rods and higher compression pistons, than the 6-bolt version, I should see good performance and excellent fuel economy. (we all know we want fuel economy)

With the exception of the Mighty Max and Dodge D50, there are no RWD transmissions for this motor. However, Bill Hincher of Bill's Auto Fab created custom bellhousing options for Toyota transmissions to mate to the Eclipse version of the 4G63. I have a Toyota Supra Turbo R154 transmission bolted to my motor.

 

Beyond those items, I have chosen to swap in Z31 5-lug hubs, including a CV axle R200. I'm using S12 V6 front struts and Z31 hubs with Infinity Q45 two piston calipers.

 

I also recently picked up some TSW Kyalami wheels. These are 16x7 wheels and I've wanted them since before I owned this car. They have been out of production for over two years, and I have been searching for them until a recent encounter with eBay that landed me these beauties.

 

Other parts currently on the car are a Specialty Engineering suspension and some poly bushings. I have the stock Z31 fuel pump mounted into the stock 510 fuel tank and I am currently re-wiring the entire car with a modern fuse box and relays. I will also be running new brake and fuel lines as soon as I figure out how I'm going to do it. Please post any information you think that could help me out. I'm interested in seeing what you guys are doing that can help point me in the right direction. I've been working on this car off and on (mostly off) since I bought it, and it has never run under it's own power. I am hoping that things will go well and I can get it on the road before 2011. Thanks for looking.

[sssr20det510]

Welcome to the real datsun forum, hope to see this done there was a local guying doing this swap got about 95 percent done and then tore it down and parted it out

[jeffball610]

Welcome to the real datsun forum, hope to see this done there was a local guying doing this swap got about 95 percent done and then tore it down and parted it out

 

Yeah. He was up in Washington. Believe he posted as Jelliot510 or something on different forums. Don't know why he quit, but he wasn't 95% done. Maybe closer to 80%.

 

I'd like to say I'm about 75% done, but there are so many small things that need to be done. Let's just say it's in progress and I'll get done eventually.

[Yakuza]

Welcome to the real datsun forum...

 

X2...This is the real 1...Nice project, cant wait to see the outcome....GL... :D

[dennis]

Welcome, I will be following this one.

 

1/4" Stainless is easy to run, I did it on my last 510 with a generic tubing bender. I ran the lines as much out of the way so no debris would impact with the lines. I was originally going to follow the original tubing but a couple of spots I didn't like so I did it my own way. I forgot what size fuel line I ran but it was aluminum (should have went with Stainless) and it was easy as well.

[Dudeman]

This looks awesome and i'll definitely be following this thread. My roommate had a 450 horse gsx that Lucas English helped him build and that thing ripped. I believe the 4G63 is one of the greatest motors ever and have long wondered what one would do in a Datsun. I hope you have a lot of rear tire on that thing tho!

[cjr198car]

what are the wheel specs (offset)? Nice project!

[Creepy Cruiser]

Welcome!

 

Looks like a cool project.

[jeffball610]

what are the wheel specs (offset)? Nice project!

 

 

They are 16x7 and I think they are +43 offset. I know that's a lot, but with the 5-lug swap, I need a 10mm spacer up front to keep from rubbing. Right now I have some 15x7 steel wheels off a Ford truck that seem to be about the same offset and some 195 tires. The rear doesn't need the spacer, but I need to space the rotor out slightly because I don't have the proper Z31 turbo rear calipers. There's a slight difference between turbo and non-turbo rear brakes. My rotors are turbo vented units and need about a 8mm spacer behind the rotor to place it in the middle of the caliper. I hope to get some 225 width tires under it someday, but for now I'll find some simple 205/45/16 and call it good.

 

Right now I'm mocking up the intercooler and radiator to make some mounting tabs. I'm just using a simple Mishimoto 3" intercooler and a Summit Racing radiator. I hope the radiator can keep this thing cool, because it's about the only one I could find that would fit perfectly in the space provided.

 

After I get the mounting done, I'll go back to wiring. Anyone have a better wiring diagram than the one in the Haynes manual? That thing kinda sucks. I've already stripped out the wiring harness for the most part, but want to make sure I get it all back together properly. The only under hood wiring I'm using is for the headlights and turn signals. The rest will be part of the engine harness and a couple wires for the cooling fans.

 

I'm sure I'll miss quite a few things in this build, as it's my first full build. With the mix-and-match method of parts I have, there will be some issues without question. But if anyone has ideas, let me know. I'll keep searching for other project pics and see what you all have.

 

I might have to steal the idea of using the Z dash that someone else did. That thing looks BA!

 

 

[sssr20det510]

 

 

I might have to steal the idea of using the Z dash that someone else did. That thing looks BA!

thanks LOL

[jeffball610]

I've got the intercooler and radiator 90% mounted. I just need to drill some holes in the upper core support to attach the upper brackets to hold the radiator in. I'll take pics tomorrow.

 

Now that I have that done, I can route my headlight wires under the intercooler and mock up the intercooler pipes and coolant hoses. Can I mount the relays for the "upgraded" headlight wiring in the fuse panel? I have two spaces I can mount relays in my fuse panel and I know I want to add relays as suggested by DQ. Is mounting the relays that far from the headlights counterproductive?

[BJW's FiveTen's]

Sweet build. On the rear trailing arms did you re-work the hub area for the later brake/axle set up and if so do you have any more info, or pics. I have been looking for a way to move my wheels inward about 10mm to make the wheel and tire package I want to run work. Any thoughts? Again Sweet build, My buddy has a evo 8 and We have done a lot to that car and it is awesome. I can only imagine how sweet your dime is going to be.

Thank you

Bryce

[dennis]

I've got the intercooler and radiator 90% mounted. I just need to drill some holes in the upper core support to attach the upper brackets to hold the radiator in. I'll take pics tomorrow.

 

Now that I have that done, I can route my headlight wires under the intercooler and mock up the intercooler pipes and coolant hoses. Can I mount the relays for the "upgraded" headlight wiring in the fuse panel? I have two spaces I can mount relays in my fuse panel and I know I want to add relays as suggested by DQ. Is mounting the relays that far from the headlights counterproductive?

 

depends on the size wire you are using.

[dennis]

If you are running 12awg wire then at 7 feet you would see a 0.196 voltage drop as compared to being wired directly to the battery. Most cars operate at 14+VDC so you headlights will still see at least 13vdc.

[jeffball610]

Sweet build. On the rear trailing arms did you re-work the hub area for the later brake/axle set up and if so do you have any more info, or pics. I have been looking for a way to move my wheels inward about 10mm to make the wheel and tire package I want to run work. Any thoughts? Again Sweet build, My buddy has a evo 8 and We have done a lot to that car and it is awesome. I can only imagine how sweet your dime is going to be.

Thank you

Bryce

 

 

This is how we mounted the rear hub/bearing area.

In hindsight, I should have mounted the caliper at 90 degrees toward the rear to make the parking brake cable work better. If you really want to space out the rear track a little, you could use wheel spacers, or if you follow the same route as me, you could space the hub area out 10mm away from the trailing arm. We simply mounted it directly to the trailing arm to try and keep it at the stock toe angle.

 

A few more pics can be found in the previous images to the above link. Most of the work on these was done by my stepfather. He's a great welder, and I simply don't have the skill yet to do this work. The idea to swap out the entire rear hub area was also not mine. I saw someone on The Realm do this and it looked like the best solution for what I was doing. I just don't want to take credit for work I haven't done. However, here is some of my work:

 

These are the pics I promised from my radiator and intercooler mount. As you can see, all I did is weld 2 nuts to the lower core support and mount the brackets to that. Trimming of the front of the car is limited to the area behind the grill. I may need to do some minor trimming to the backside of the lower valance, but it is so minor that even a trained eye probably won't notice. I have since painted the intercooler black. I'm not into showing off my intercooler for all to see, but left it this way for the pics so you could see it better.

[BJW's FiveTen's]

Sweet thanks for the info. I'm actually trying to move it inwards. But after seeing what you did I'm sure I can make it work. Your car is coming along nicely. I need to mount my intercooler also. Any ways keep up the good work.

Thank you

Bryce

[jeffball610]

I'm starting to run into issues. Small issues being that I need to figure out what to do with things like the clutch slave cylinder. Right where the hydro line goes int, it nearly touches my steering cross link.

 

I also feel that the oil pan sits way too low. It is close to the front crossmember, but plenty of room for vibration etc. Most of this can be solved by using custom mounts instead of the stock MM mounts. I think I will choose to raise the motor up so I won't have to modify the oil pan. I have plenty of room to move up. The only sheet metal I will need to cut is for the top of the transmission. Right where the R154 shifter is at, the transmission touches the tunnel. Other than that, I have plenty of room all around. This will also give me more room to run the exhaust under the driveshaft for ground clearance.

 

My biggest issue, however, is the motor itself. I bought this motor about 4 years ago for $150 from a trusted member in Colorado. He told me the motor was being scrapped due to a broken timing belt. The pistons didn't look bad, so I took it. This weekend I pulled the oil pan and front case to do a balance shaft eliminator and noticed some gray material on the pickup screen. There was some in the pan, but mostly just a little coolant that likely seeped in when pulling the head.

 

I was pulling off the balance shafts, and it looks like the bearing surface is F*CKED! I'll need to dig in a little more and see what's up, but I may need to scrap the motor if the bearings are bad, or if the crank looks like the balance shafts. I know I can find another motor, but why do things like this happen? Things were going so well. :cry:

 

I'll take some pics for everyone to enjoy.

[sssr20det510]

I'm starting to run into issues. Small issues being that I need to figure out what to do with things like the clutch slave cylinder. Right where the hydro line goes int, it nearly touches my steering cross link.

 

I also feel that the oil pan sits way too low. It is close to the front crossmember, but plenty of room for vibration etc. Most of this can be solved by using custom mounts instead of the stock MM mounts. I think I will choose to raise the motor up so I won't have to modify the oil pan. I have plenty of room to move up. The only sheet metal I will need to cut is for the top of the transmission. Right where the R154 shifter is at, the transmission touches the tunnel. Other than that, I have plenty of room all around. This will also give me more room to run the exhaust under the driveshaft for ground clearance.

 

My biggest issue, however, is the motor itself. I bought this motor about 4 years ago for $150 from a trusted member in Colorado. He told me the motor was being scrapped due to a broken timing belt. The pistons didn't look bad, so I took it. This weekend I pulled the oil pan and front case to do a balance shaft eliminator and noticed some gray material on the pickup screen. There was some in the pan, but mostly just a little coolant that likely seeped in when pulling the head.

 

I was pulling off the balance shafts, and it looks like the bearing surface is F*CKED! I'll need to dig in a little more and see what's up, but I may need to scrap the motor if the bearings are bad, or if the crank looks like the balance shafts. I know I can find another motor, but why do things like this happen? Things were going so well. :cry:

 

I'll take some pics for everyone to enjoy.

 

what motor mounts are you using? stock 510 or ???? if you are using the 510 mounts you can go 620 mounts and it will raise the motor up about 1/2 inch

[Alchemist]

Hi Jeff!

 

I admire your engine choice to propel the 510!

 

Dudeman said: I believe the 4G63 is one of the greatest motors ever and have long wondered what one would do in a Datsun.

 

I concur! HKS selected the 4G63 motor to be built as a "le mans motor" some years back but I hadn't see or heard about it. Since HKS is a "major player" when it comes to performance, selecting to build a 4g63 for racing at "le mans" says great things about the power potential and reliablity of this particular Mitsu engine!

 

Looking forward to seeing and hearing about your progress Jeff!

 

Ernie

[jeffball610]

what motor mounts are you using? stock 510 or ???? if you are using the 510 mounts you can go 620 mounts and it will raise the motor up about 1/2 inch

 

Currently I have the stock 510 mounts with Mitsubishi Mighty Max (truck) engine mounts. I think I will likely go with some custom engine mounts. I should be able to keep the rubber 510 mounts, but if the 620 mounts are available, I wouldn't mind using those. I don't think the 1/2" will make enough of a difference, but I think I need to do more measuring first. I have to pull the motor anyway to see if there is any crank or bearing damage. This will give me the opportunity to make some new mounts and reassess the situation.

 

And on a side note about the 4G63. There are a handful of examples making over 1000hp. I know there's at least a few SR20DET motors making that as well, but being a foreign engine, parts are more expensive and harder to locate. This is just my slice of bread.

[sssr20det510]

I think no one can argue the 4g63 is a great engine and is capable of a lot of power. Just don't stop every motor swap has its bumps you run into. Looking great so for

[BJW's FiveTen's]

R bearing it. It's not a big deal. Coolant will etch bearings, so pull them out and replace them. Have you had the Head checked. Usually when a t-belt goes those engines like to have the valves find the pistons. So if you have no bent valves, and the head looks ok, re-bearing the beast and roll.

[jeffball610]

R bearing it. It's not a big deal. Coolant will etch bearings, so pull them out and replace them. Have you had the Head checked. Usually when a t-belt goes those engines like to have the valves find the pistons. So if you have no bent valves, and the head looks ok, re-bearing the beast and roll.

 

 

I have a 7-bolt block from a 95 (8.5:1 compression pistons, lighter rods, main bearing girdle) and a 1G head (larger intake ports). I freshened up the head with new SS valves and valve guide seals. The block was the unknown. It was purchased as a bare short block and the cylinder walls looked good. The previous owner stated that he broke a timing belt. There was some material on the oil pump outside that looked like burned up belt material and some small (very small) marks on the pistons that confirmed it's history. However, I did not pull the pan until this last weekend. I went and bought a new engine stand yesterday, so I'll pull the motor and check the main bearings. I don't know if the main bolts are stretch to yield, so I might hold off until I get that info confirmed. I don't mind if the bearings are trashed, that's a fairly easy/cheap fix. But if it scored the crank like it did the balance shafts, then I might was well rebuild the whole thing or get another motor. We'll see what I find.

 

 

[sssr20det510]

id go 6 bolt if you have to get a new engine

[jeffball610]

I stripped the block last night to find out what the damage is. Here you go:

 

#2 Rod Bearing

#2 Rod Bearing Cap

#2 Crank

 

This one seemed the worst of all of them. I don't have enough experience to tell if the crank or rods are reusable. I'll get an opinion from Trevtec and see what he says. I will likely have to source another motor. Best case scenario is new bearings, rings and a cylinder hone. I doubt I'm that lucky.

 

More Pics here:

http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u71/jeffball610/2G%20block/