HHO Generator

[ninjaboot]

Any of you crazy nuts installed an HHO Generator? I have a stock 83 720 with that oddball 8 plug 2.2. Ive only read good things about it so far and would love to hear from someone who's had a success to see if I should barrel into this.

[stilltwisted]

i had cut most of the metal to make a hho gen but lost interst with all the drilling ,,stainless steel kills drill bits

[dimedriver]

Mega post: I don't really want to knock anyone I just want to out line how this HHO fad is not really worth it. I think it may be fun to play with but your not really going to be sticking it to the oilman with this technology.

 

You would need a generator larger than your truck bed and an alternator/Generator bigger than your Z22, if you wanted to produce enough gas to power the truck.:lol:

 

There is a reason the pure Hydrogen powered car has not taken off. Compressed gases are very hard to store. Hydrogen require a crazy Air Fuel ratio too. Something close to more fuel than air. Air is also only 20% oxygen. For every one atom of oxygen you need two atoms of hydrogen. By mass this starts to move in your favor but doesn't really get there.

 

The next problem is the internal combustion engine is only going to be around 40% efficient at turning the energy from the burning fuel into movement. That 40% is best case most likely with a diesel engine(think Audi R-10 lemans car). Most engines are more around the 30% efficient range. Most of the energy goes out the tail pipe and the radiator. This is not even counting the 3 strokes other than the power stroke were your wasting energy by moving gases around. This just proves there is a ton of energy stored in the GAS we use every day. No wounder they have no smoking signs all over the place at gas stations.

 

You would be better off placing electric assist motors on the non-driven wheels. At least that way your going to get a 90% efficient energy conversion off of the power out of the alternator.

 

 

Lets out line the energy conversions.

 

Electric power used for HHO production:

Researchers believe a 90+% efficient system is possible but will require crazy stuff like surface of the sun temperatures and crazy high or low pressures.

Most high tech systems are in the 50% range. One you or I could build would be closer to the 20 or 30% range. Yes this is with the advanced PWM circuit, SS plates, recycling cooling system and all that shit.

 

If we say our system is awesome say 33% efficient that means we are flushing 66%, yes 2/3 of the power used from alternator away as heat. But we have not even burned the stuff yet.

 

Power lost Burning the HHO:

As I said before the IC engine is very inefficient. Lets say we have an awesome built 2.0L KA turbo motor. Its blue printed and has minimal fiction losses. Roller lifters, Roller chain, and some what loose clearances. A race engine. It may hit the 35% efficacy, but lets say 33% just to make the math here easy. Boom, we just lost another 2/3 of that 1/3 we had left over from the HHO production.

 

Another way of looking at it. Lets say you install a 300amp alternator to power your HHO generator. I don't know where you can get one, but it will take about 5 horsepower to turn it if its really efficient. Thats 300amp * 12volts = 3600watts.

 

 

a google search of "3600watts in horsepower" yields

3600 watts = 4.82767952 horsepower

 

After the 1st power conversion, electricity to HHO you have 100amps worth of HHO. Or 100amps * 12volts = 1200watts or a bit less than 2 horse power.

 

1200 watts = 1.60922651 horsepower

 

Next power conversion Burn the HHO in our race engine.

our 1200watts becomes 400watts. or a very tiny bit more than half a horsepower.

 

(1200 watts) / 3 = 0.536408836 horsepower

From google again

search for "(1200 watts / 3) in horsepower"

 

So you could spend 5hp to make .5hp. But it should look something more like this. Use 5hp to make negative 4.5hp.

 

I'm all ok with people playing around with this stuff but don't expect any crazy jumps in gas mileage. Most of the results are from changes in driving habits, while watching their fuel economy gauge trying to make the test run count.

 

-Dime

[72 327]

Yah what he said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[izzo]

Ya right

 

Dimedriver probly has stock in the oil company, or owns it out right :lol::fu: Kidding, i don't know shit about this technology.

[datzenmike]

I have noticed that if you are trying to prove that your car gives better mileage you drive much more slowly, anticipate stops or slow downs and so avoid hitting the brakes as much which wastes the vehicle's hard earned velocity. In fact all your driving is affected towards gas saving. Is it any wonder these HHO addicts report fuel savings?

 

The only thing I can see that may, I say may add some mileage is that a small amount of 'Brown's Gas' may help ignite the regular fuel better. But I expect that the amount is vanishingly small as the amount of gas produced per min is what half a liter? How many cu ft of fuel/air goes through a motor in that time??? Yeah quite a bit in comparison.

 

Just like UFO believers, paranormal ghost chasers, Bigfoot hunters they all want to believe in something so bad they cannot be objective.

 

BTW I think hydrogen burned with oxygen produces the most energy per weight of any fuel. Any fuel. Hell NASA goes into orbit with it. They don't use diesel do they.

[MAG58]

BTW I think hydrogen burned with oxygen produces the most energy per weight of any fuel. Any fuel. Hell NASA goes into orbit with it. They don't use diesel do they.

 

It is also the hardest fuel to control. In an engine where you just throw a regulated amount of Oxidizer and H2 into what amounts to a blast furnace with a cone at one end, it's all good, but when it comes to being able to control the burn in a piston engine, with flame front speeds that are exponentially higher than a hydrocarbon fuel, you get more ping and det than you do get actual productive power output.

 

One reason why the Hydrogen-RE Rx8 in japan has been mildly successful in japan (compared to other hydrogen cars), the long narrow nature of the rotary combustion chamber loves fast burning fuels.

[Braden]

i have infact experimented with hho generators, the system is a very simple idea and with a carburated vehicle is in fact a very very cool idea, i sucessfully built and tested an hho generator on my workbench and it worked quite well, i used 304 stainless sheeting and rubber washers to space the plates, theoretically if an efficient alternator was installed on your vehicle and your generator system was working properly all you would have to do is maybe jet down your carb a little to get somewhat better gas mileage, i have reviewed an hho system on my 620 in my head several times while sitting bored in one of my college classes, the system would consist of the generator itself (stainless plates with alternating polarity) and then a gas feed line into a water seperator (to prevent water from entering your intake), then a check valve to prevent an explosion and from there a feed line directly into a vacumm line on the intake manifold.

 

of course hho has no lubricating properties so running your engine too richly on hho could reduce the life of your engine, in order to get an excess of energy from the reaction, your cell and your charging system would need to be very efficient (remove ac or smog pump) now that i think about it i may try and continue playing with hho and maybe build a small cell and put it in my truck, when i built my bench generator i collected the gas in a graduated cylinder and ignited it with a torch, let me say the shit is explosive so if you do try experimenting with it be very very cautious, i was lighting bubbles about the size of a small gumball and getting a crack as loud as a firecracker and my ears were ringing, so please be carefull

 

im sure this thread will get much criticism but the only real way to see if using hho as a petroleum accelerant works is to build and test a cell, so some of you guys with money and time get your asses to work!!!!!!

[Braden]

Mega post: I don't really want to knock anyone I just want to out line how this HHO fad is not really worth it. I think it may be fun to play with but your not really going to be sticking it to the oilman with this technology.

 

You would need a generator larger than your truck bed and an alternator/Generator bigger than your Z22, if you wanted to produce enough gas to power the truck.:lol:

 

There is a reason the pure Hydrogen powered car has not taken off. Compressed gases are very hard to store. Hydrogen require a crazy Air Fuel ratio too. Something close to more fuel than air. Air is also only 20% oxygen. For every one atom of oxygen you need two atoms of hydrogen. By mass this starts to move in your favor but doesn't really get there.

 

The next problem is the internal combustion engine is only going to be around 40% efficient at turning the energy from the burning fuel into movement. That 40% is best case most likely with a diesel engine(think Audi R-10 lemans car). Most engines are more around the 30% efficient range. Most of the energy goes out the tail pipe and the radiator. This is not even counting the 3 strokes other than the power stroke were your wasting energy by moving gases around. This just proves there is a ton of energy stored in the GAS we use every day. No wounder they have no smoking signs all over the place at gas stations.

 

You would be better off placing electric assist motors on the non-driven wheels. At least that way your going to get a 90% efficient energy conversion off of the power out of the alternator.

 

 

Lets out line the energy conversions.

 

Electric power used for HHO production:

Researchers believe a 90+% efficient system is possible but will require crazy stuff like surface of the sun temperatures and crazy high or low pressures.

Most high tech systems are in the 50% range. One you or I could build would be closer to the 20 or 30% range. Yes this is with the advanced PWM circuit, SS plates, recycling cooling system and all that shit.

 

If we say our system is awesome say 33% efficient that means we are flushing 66%, yes 2/3 of the power used from alternator away as heat. But we have not even burned the stuff yet.

 

Power lost Burning the HHO:

As I said before the IC engine is very inefficient. Lets say we have an awesome built 2.0L KA turbo motor. Its blue printed and has minimal fiction losses. Roller lifters, Roller chain, and some what loose clearances. A race engine. It may hit the 35% efficacy, but lets say 33% just to make the math here easy. Boom, we just lost another 2/3 of that 1/3 we had left over from the HHO production.

 

Another way of looking at it. Lets say you install a 300amp alternator to power your HHO generator. I don't know where you can get one, but it will take about 5 horsepower to turn it if its really efficient. Thats 300amp * 12volts = 3600watts.

 

 

a google search of "3600watts in horsepower" yields

3600 watts = 4.82767952 horsepower

 

After the 1st power conversion, electricity to HHO you have 100amps worth of HHO. Or 100amps * 12volts = 1200watts or a bit less than 2 horse power.

 

1200 watts = 1.60922651 horsepower

 

Next power conversion Burn the HHO in our race engine.

our 1200watts becomes 400watts. or a very tiny bit more than half a horsepower.

 

(1200 watts) / 3 = 0.536408836 horsepower

From google again

search for "(1200 watts / 3) in horsepower"

 

So you could spend 5hp to make .5hp. But it should look something more like this. Use 5hp to make negative 4.5hp.

 

I'm all ok with people playing around with this stuff but don't expect any crazy jumps in gas mileage. Most of the results are from changes in driving habits, while watching their fuel economy gauge trying to make the test run count.

 

-Dime

 

AGREED!!! but infact the only way to satisfy the human mind is to show actual proof (mythbusters style), the scientific method states that after hypothesis comes and experiment bla bla bla, so someone needs to try this shit, hell who knows, if you plan on keeping and driving your vehicle for a long time, the 10 extra miles to the tank or what have you can add up, that is once again if you build an efficient system

[Braden]

one more thing that we all know is that in a fuel injected vehicle the headaches would far outweigh the gains, i once looked into building an efie circuit and said the hell with it. when you burn hho in a fuel injected the vehicle the 02 sensor detects a lean mix, adding more fuel, thus decreasing your gas mileage not increasing it

[datzenmike]

Look, you can never run an engine solely on HHO that it self produces. It would violate the second law of thermodynamics. Energy can't be made but it can be transformed and moved around some. Naturally there will be losses else we could run the engine on HHO to drive an alternator, to run the gas generator to make the gas to run the engine. Round and round. And also naturally, we wouldn't have created any extra energy (violation of the first law of thermodynamics) to actually drive the car. Regenerative brakes? Sure, but you still need energy to get the vehicle up to speed in order to use the brakes in the first place.

 

As I said previously, there may be some benefit from running some of this HHO gas mixed with gasoline solely as a kind of octane booster (or some other chemical process) to improve the burn efficiency. But, it would have to be substantial to offset the energy required to power the alternator and other losses to power the gas generator to make the HHO gas.

 

Question:

At normal outside air pressure, just how much gas (HHO) in cubic feet is produced per minute with say a 15 amp input. Assume the most optimistic amount that could be produced in cubic feet.... how much?

[dimedriver]

I think one of the major problems encountered here is how to measure production of the gas. Volume is kinda irrelevant unless both pressure and temperature are held constant(very hard todo). If you could measure the mass of the HHO you would find that none of the top preforming generators are producing much HHO. How do you buy Propane? In weight measurements or pounds. Watch any of the countless youtube videos of the HHO generators. Most will prove they can fill a drink bottle 20oz or 2 liter in a few seconds. Which they can but that is still an unknown quantity of gas. You will notice in these videos that the water level in the generators does not decrease. If you were producing a sizable amount of HHO gas the water level in the generator would decrease by some perceivable amount depending on the size of the container.

 

I don't contest that there maybe some benefit to the combustion process. Im just saying your not going to get any huge gains like most people claim.

 

Also the O2 sensor just reads a ratio of the oxygen to the rest of the exhaust gases. HHO should be the perfect ratio and there for have little to no effect on the O2 sensor output, when the air it displaces in unaccounted for by the ECU. This is easy on MAF based system but pretty hard on MAP based ones. The MAP based system will measure the HHO as extra air and inject the required amount of fuel for it. If the HHO is allowed in after the MAF on a MAF based system(most Nissans) it will be unaccounted for therefor displacing some air that would have been drawn in. The ECU will inject the fuel required for the air that passed threw the MAF, but not account for the HHO. Which is what you want.

 

-Dime

[datzenmike]

I think that a liter of water breaks down to about 1,700 liters of gas. If I remember my chemistry right.

[Braden]

yes the amount of water loss is the cell is minimal, i ran mine for several hours with no noticeable affect on water level, also depending on altitude the volme of gas produced say one liter at atmospheric pressure is the same from place to place so yes it is a measurable amount in volume terms but no it isnt very much gas, you would not want to store this gas, this is why it is made on demand

[datzenmike]

Again, the gas is produced at a steady rate yet the motor runs through a huge range of speeds. More gas would be used in proportion to fuel/air at idle than out on the highway.

[Braden]

Again, the gas is produced at a steady rate yet the motor runs through a huge range of speeds. More gas would be used in proportion to fuel/air at idle than out on the highway.

 

true, maybe a venturi??????? look at other designs on the web many include a venturi so that the varying amount of vacumm varies the intake of the gas