Project Sic Sic 620

[lowdatsun620]

Alright Ratsun, time to make an update from last weekend since I'm almost back to page 3, and that won't do :P

 

Ok so Saturday I picked up my 20" Titans :D

 

Daaaaaaaaammmmmnnnnn!!!!

 

Here they are on the truck... I jacked the front up until I hit the bumpstops and it is still over an inch higher than I'd ride 95% of the time. :lol: Sure fill those wells nice though.

 

And just for kicks, DONK! Full droop.

 

I also picked up my Beebani control arms and rear Isuzu disc brackets form the post office.:lol: Very nice buddy!

 

Sunday was rainy and miserable, of course, it's fall in Vancouver., Couldn't let that stop work on Sic Sic though so I set myself up a little shelter and went to work.

 

Started on the drivers side, which already had the suspension removed. I pulled out the sway bar (up for grabs) and cut out the shock. Then I cut off the bump and droop stops...

 

Then I went to town, cleaning it up in prep for the upper bag mount...

 

Threw in the 3" lowered hardbody lower control arm...

 

...and found it was toooo wide...

 

Used the handy-dandy 'search' tool and managed to find that the Hardbody units are indeed 1/2" wider, so that was a relief. Have to find some proper sized washers and a right sized bolt for final install.

 

Continuing with the mock up, I threw on the Hardbody spindle (off a V6, dual piston calipers bitchesss!) and went to bolt up the Hardbody upper arm before I separated it from the pivot rod, just to see what the issue was with them for myself and found THIS, agh...

The rear mounting holes were lined up but the fronts were waaaay forward, WTF? That's supposed to be the part that works here.

 

After measuring my HB arms (thinking V6 may be different) against another HB at the fabricators, and found they were the same,and then against the 620 just to make sure, I decided to bust out the secret Datsun weapon again, the search tool.

 

 

I was told the 720 and Hardbody pivots were the same so I thought I could get away without finding another parts vehicle, but alas if it were so easy no one would have bothered using the 720 with their HB parts.

 

For the noobs, only the BUSHINGS are the same from 78 up, but for Hardbodies, the arms were wider and so were the pivot bars and their mounting holes, so they WONT work on your 620. The balljoint 620s and the 720s used 620 width pivots with the same bushings as hardbodies.

 

So not to be discouraged by little things like that, I figured I'd at least estimate where my Beebani arms would get me in terms of max drop and camber so I'd know where we were 'sitting' so far, so to speak.

 

This is a shot holding my iPhone as level as I could while holding everything in approximate position, and this is where my camber will be when fully dropped... can anyone say 15 degrees?

 

I don't typically like the cambered look but I've accepted that its the only way I'm going to get those Titans to pull in to clear the fenders. Plus I'm going to have to air up quite a ways to get those 20's out of the well to turn so ride height should still have little to no camber... I hope :P

 

And heres where the spindle is sitting at max drop...

 

This could be brought up a bit as the bit of frame support that flows from around the engine crossmember up to the bumpstop mount has just been cut to the frame face, but it is about 3/4" below the frame (see pics of cleaned up frame above, you can see it there right under the framerail). This is what is holding me from going higher as the lower arm is hitting it. Also the top of the balljoint is pretty much at the wheel tub. That's obviously coming out but it's there for now.

 

Since my Titans haven't been milled out for the HB hubs yet and I havent cut out the wheel wells, I took some basic measurements to at least see if it DEFINITELY wouldn't work this way. I got 19.5 inches vertical from level with the rocker to the lip of the wheel well, and 8 inches from top of the fender down to the lip for a total height of 27.5 inches.... a 20 with a 225/30 is 25.3 inches tall so I have just under 2 1/4" to play with, and camber will help use that up.... it's gonna be tight!

 

With the spindle sitting where it is, I have about 7 inches to the fender lip, plus 8 to the top of fender, for 15 inches. Subtract a 2 inch body drop for 13", less than half of the 27.5 inches available, so from that I SHOULD be able to lay, or rather I haven't yet proven that I can't so the battle wages on.

 

Have the day off tomorrow so I'm going to go over to the fab's place to get the passenger side caught up to where the driver's is at this point. Thinkin I might cut off the bumpstops before I take apart the suspension so I can jack a rim up into the well, see how the stock suspension geometry would tuck.

 

It's highly unlikely I'll even consider keeping it at this point but I do have a set of new kingpins and there's always the Isuzu disc conversion, should it end up looking alot better than the HB gear. I believe I have read the HB arms add 2.5" in track width, I don't think it will be to big of an issue to creatively resolve, but you know, just keepin my options open.

[1Low620]

I've yet to see a 620 with 20's that hasn't been hacked to pieces, lay frame. Good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this! :)

[lowdatsun620]

its gonna be a challenge but the datto comes first, 20s and bodydrop are just the goals. cant wait to go do some more work tomorrow!

[lowdatsun620]

Alright got some more work done yesterday.

 

Started off the morning with the stock 620 suspension on the passenger side.

 

Cut out the shock and radius rod, unbolted the upper control arm and started cut out the bump stop. Bolted the upper arm back on, threw on a 20" and jacked the suspension all the way up.

 

Lower arm bottomed out:

 

Tuckin 20's:

With bumpstops for comparison:

 

Camber:

 

Without rubber, the bottom of the rim is still 3-4" below the frame. Clearance is pretty good for the most part, but the fender lip impedes turning radius.

 

When the wheel is straight, 3 fingers clearance to lip:

 

Turned all the way to the left, there is only 1 finger of clearance. If you were to static drop to this height, the lip would have to be rolled, and you would have to add a bit of flare to the fender to allow full turning without rubbing.

 

Frame clearance is good though, with 3 fingers clearance at max turn each way.

Right:

Left:

 

From what I can tell, running 20" Titans with 30 series rubber would be no problem with a static drop if you cut down the bumpstops or ran low profile stops and crank the torsions all the way down. The extra rim height gets you into tuck, adds a little ground clearance and should be rub free, and without full bumpstops you could keep a little suspension travel to save your teeth from rattling out of your head. I wouldnt want to try low pro tires, riding on bumpstops, unless you have REALLY cushy seats :lol: Of course your camber wear would be ridiculous.

 

Then I removed the suspension and cut everything off down to the frame rails.

 

We did more work, but I didn't get pix. I'll get some tonight and post the rest of the progress. Should have the front setup at least tacked in place and ran through its travel tonight.

Edited November 2, 2009 by lowdatsun620

[slam_dat_sun]

Man things are looking real good and coming along very quickly . Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming ..........

[lowdatsun620]

Yeah, even I'm surprised to see how quick things are moving along. Glad I have a motivated welder/fabricator on my side, pushing things forward. Once we get the front suspension back together we can roll it into the garage and stay warm and dry while we work, so we're haulin ass cuz fall is in full swing now, and winters on its way.

[lowdatsun620]

Gettin there, but still no bags yet :mad:

 

So last night I modified the lower control arms to bring them in 1 1/2" to correct for the added track width of the Hardbody setup. The arms had holes drilled on the front side already so just drilled that to size and then drilled a hole on the other side. Don't have a before pic.

Front side:

The notch is there because the original hole was actually larger than the bolt and had a spacer slipped in, so when that was cut off it was closer than I would have liked. Might weld it in later to add meat around the bolt and make it stronger and look better.

 

Back side:

 

Also cut the shock mount off the arm.

 

Then we tacked the new upper mount on, 1/2" from frame edge, to see how camber at ride height looked.

 

It was way positive so we called it a night. This morning off came the bracket, cleaned it back up, and moved it in 1/4". Still out just a touch so in another 1/8" and angled in a touch and bam! Neutral camber at ride height. Welded 'er up solid, took our measurements and did the drivers side. Added a support between the bolt holes, welded that up solid and Bob's your uncle, upper arm mounts completed:

 

Next we had to run the suspension through its travel to make sure everything was hunky-dory. The rim is a little in from flush with the fender at ride height, and cambers in with lots of room. At approximately the rim height where the stock 620 kingpin suspension bottomed out, clearance is pretty much the same, 3 fingers. Awesome, keep on truckin... another 3/4" and the truck starts lifting... that's it!? :blink: What's going on?

 

Look at the 2nd pic above, of the backside of the lower control arm and you can probably tell where we had interference, between the control arm top plate and the engine crossmember, about halfway along that edge as seen in that pic. You can kinda see in the last pic as well, that even at ride height its fairly close, due to shortening them 1 1/2". You can also see how far the arm still is from hitting what used to be the bumpstop plate, and we still get the hub up to the same point, all thanks to those 3" dropped lower control arms. We probably would still be scratching our heads to figure out how to get more drop if we went with OEM units.

 

So out came the suspension for the hundredth time, and I cut a notch in the crossmember brackets to clear the control arm all the way through its travel, and cut out what was left of the bumpstop plate while I was at it since that would be the next spot of interference. Now if it hits anything, it'll be frame. Let's hope not :D

 

Bolted it all back up. Ran it up, sweet, its clearing. Up, up, up... ho shit! its getting way up there! Uncharted territory... STOP! Trucks starting to lift again! Okay, what's getting cut out next?! Still have over an inch till the arm hits frame... good there. Oh okay, top of balljoint is hitting inside wheel well, no biggie. But it's JUST touching, that wouldn't lift the whole truck. Then we look at the balljoints and realize they are definitely binding, probably AT LEAST a 50 degree angle on them at this point. We knew we'd have to pie cut the HB upper arms and take out some angle there, so that's the next step. But we're just over an inch from being low enough so things are still looking good... so far.

Too dark for pics by the time we got this far so you'll just have to believe me for now. :P

The closer we get though, the smaller the tolerances and the less room we have for correction, short of starting all over again from bare frame, so of course the more antsy and anxious I get to just get it done so I can breathe a sigh of relief, but he's confident and he's the one who's done this before so I'm just trusting him at this point. It'll be a couple days at least till I can rest easy, no time for the truck. *Sigh*

 

As a side note, I think this truck almost became a project with a past owner... This is my passenger side motor mount...

Looks like a torch cut to us, not straight so its not a cutting wheel, and its the same width top to bottom so its not a crack or it would taper out. Only 1/2" of meat holding that sucker on on the front side. Nice to know NOW! Think I'm gonna clean some of that dirt and grime off, see what it looks like under there, I'm sure someone started to do a motor swap or something YEARS ago and stopped at literally the last second for some reason.

[Farmer]

Going real good with your build. Great fab work

 

Larry

[Farmer]

I've yet to see a 620 with 20's that hasn't been hacked to pieces, lay frame. Good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this! :)

 

These look like 20. but the 620 not laying frame

 

 

Larry

[Madness]

Check out the fender.... Pretty sure they are 20s but the dude could be full of it. :D

[lowdatsun620]

That's a nice one, haven't seen it before. Those are def 20's. He's still got lots of room to lay but that's a pretty nice stance for static. I'm guessing he's cut out the bumpstops. Wonder what else he did to the suspension cause the 620 gear is well into camber that low.

Love that phantom grille too. Pretty 2003 but still. hmmm...:rolleyes:

Edited November 2, 2009 by lowdatsun620

[CharlieBucket]

Wow man, i just caught up on this one. i have been waiting for someone to run the 20" titans. did you just bore them out like the 18"?

[lowdatsun620]

Wow man, i just caught up on this one. i have been waiting for someone to run the 20" titans. did you just bore them out like the 18"?

 

haven't yet, but yeah I'll have to. They fit on the 620 hubs but not the Hardbody, which is the main reason I haven't got pix with the rims since removing the 620 gear. Found a DIY vid for boring the rims also. Don't know how to get the web address for YouTube on my phone but just search 'bore Titan wheels 4 mini truck'. Love the gloves lol. Save yourself a couple hundy on machining.

Edited November 2, 2009 by lowdatsun620

[airedout]

If your goal is to lay on those 20's, i highly suggest using a comletely different clip to acheive this. Yota or hardbody will work, it will just need to be narrow a good bit. Check out my build thread for the pics of the hardbody clip i am doing.

 

The stock datsun arms are far to narrow to achieve that huge drop and lift you will need to lay on those 20's. If you do hack enough of the frame to get the arms to even allow you to lay, you will be maxing your balljoints. The next big problem you will have is getting the lift you need. The upper arm will hit the bag if its placed in a conventional spot.

[lowdatsun620]

Hey Ratsun, I'm back!

 

Holy moly it's been a long time! The project got sidelined by a whole bunch of life and school and moving and moving and moving, but I've managed to hang on to the Datsun all these years, thanks to a generous donation of field space.

 

Now I'm in my own house, with a big ass garage and lots of driveway, a good amount of free time and a little bit of extra funds, and gosh darnit, all I wanna do is drive my Datsun again!

 

I brought the truck up late last fall, still with no front suspension and managed to drag it off the trailer, onto the single post hoist in the garage and removed the half attached rear axle, stripped the wiring harness and scraped some mud, rust and loose paint off. It basically sat like that, bed all cock-eyed up on the notches, cab full of parts over winter, until a couple weeks ago. I rented an A-frame hoist and pulled the engine, tranny, cab and bed apart and power washed the lot. The engine went up on a stand and I popped 3" caster wheels through the cab mounts so I could move it in and out of the garage easily.

 

I removed front and rear glass, the windshield didn't survive. It had been leak-proofed with two tubes of silicone and did not want to come out, but it needed to be replaced anyways. The interior was "gutted" except I haven't got the heater out yet, which basically means I took the mouldy, rusty, broken seat out, everything else had been removed prior.

 

I've been attacking the paint with a wire brush on an angle grinder, removing the 5 layers of paint, rust and quite a bit of bondo from the front and rear glass frames and around the door jambs and rain gutters, rear of cab and under hood. I'm just reprinting with cheap red-brown rattle can rust primer to protect the metal for now. The wire brush is a bit harsh, but it makes quick work in the sturdier nooks and crannies without marring the steel much. I used it for the roof too, mainly to test it on broader panels, since it was basically completely warped when I tried to remove the leaky sunroof anyways. I'm pretty sure the warping is worse now. It's definitely not something I'd want to use on hoods, fenders or doors, or a good roof, aside from the frames, too much heat and pressure, good chance of warping. It's also pretty aggressive for lead and will slightly dimple the factory roof work where roof panel meets b-pillar (haven't found any other spots yet).

I picked up an abrasive disc, kind of like a hard rough sponge, thinking it might be softer on the metal, but it's way more aggressive. Will probably work great on the dirt, grease and undercoat layer, as the wire brush tends to melt and smear the undercoat first, but I will try not to take it to metal with this disc.

I also tried a gel paint stripper this morning, which was the biggest waste of time and money. Spread a thin layer over the roof, cab rear, hood and pass door, product dries, nothing. Spread a thick layer over the same, a few small patches ripple, so I think it's working, product dries, nothing. It dries in maybe a minute so it's not like I'm waiting too long. The top layer may be marginally softer after, but this is a mega-crappy repaint job, that I'm pretty sure was done with a roller, house paint and never saw a clear coat or wax in it's 20+ year life, if it can't bust through that, it's useless.

 

Does anybody have any other suggestions to taking all the body work to sheet metal? Am I doomed to pick up a DA and cover everything for 3 houses in all directions in a layer of dust? Any reliable paint strippers that don't require a hazmat suit? At least the wire wheel makes pretty coarse dust so it doesn't travel too far.

 

On the engine side, I decreased the crap out of it and actually got it reasonably clean, but then the thick black crud in all the nooks and crannies stood out like a sore thumb, so I just started tearing it down and cleaning it all up. As long as I had it, the truck spewed black paint out the tail pipe when cold, dieseled pretty much every time it was turned off, idled high and had a huge flat spot in the throttle. I never could get the carb set-up right, but I don't think I really knew what I was doing either. When I took the exhaust manifold off, the ports were caked and black, and 2 and 3 were the worst and both had ash like stuff inside too, not sure if that was byproduct from years of sitting. Anyways, I knew it was going to at least need the head to come off, and it was no better inside. All cylinders, but mainly 2/3 were coated in carbon, like "losing a few cc's, valves not closing fully, piston rings jammed up" coated in carbon. I spun the engine upside down (to keep crap from flowing deeper) and sprayed out and wiped down the piston walls with carb cleaner, then spun the pistons to TDC and soaked in carb cleaner and attacked with medium synthetic steel wool to get most of the crud off. Have to pick up some scotchbrite or something similarly soft to clean the last bit without marring anything. Today I did the same to the head, knocking down most of the carbon on the valve faces and chamber walls, and rinsing out the ports and valve tops as best I could.

 

At this point I've decided I have to at least get a re-ring kit and pull the pistons and get them cleaned up, and check bottom end tolerances, but I also want to get the head apart to properly clean the valve tops and seats since I can still see lots of crud I can't really get at. The cylinder walls feel pretty smooth, but I have to get a light down in there and have a good look, I can't imagine they haven't pitted at all after sitting so long. Part of me just wants to build a 2.1L long rod, but I want to build that right, and that means lots of money to the machinist, and at this point, I'd end up with a great motor and nothing to stick it in. I'm hoping everything will be within tolerance and I can get another summer out of the motor before machining. Then I can put the money into getting it driveable first, work out the bugs and have some fun, then build a 2.1 over the winter. Aside from the carbon caking, I'd say the motor had been at least torn to a long block fairly recently, all the gaskets were newish, timing chain looks good. Then again, the couple valve lashes I checked were like .017, so who knows what this thing has actually been through.

 

Anyways, there's the long and long-overdue update, I'll update some pics some day soon. I really just wanted to ask one question, how do you remove the rockers, valves etc? I can't find my Haynes manual, and the FSM online doesn't actually say how. Everything I can find online is just adjustment. I've adjusted them all as loose as they will go, but can't pop the arms off. Do I just need to undo the base nut on the rocker post? If so, How do the rocker retainer spring clip thingers come off so I can get a wrench on there? And what size are those nuts? I don't have a wrench big enough, I'll have to pick one up, seems like maybe 21mm?

 

Thanks in advance guys, it's nice to be back with ratsun fever.

[hobospyder]

Holy thread revival batman

 

I'm glad you're surviving life enough to tell this story. Welcome back. I ain't much help with all the technical stuff but hey at least I'm learning from your progress on the body work.

[collision and customs]

I like how this is going. I always wondered how those 20" Titan's would work. In my mind 18's were as big as we could go.

[lowdatsun620]

Thanks guys. Yeah progress has been slow on that front. I grabbed a free takeoff from the tire shop just to get a hint, but I think it's a 40 series, WAAAY too big. I'm pretty sure best I can do is an 18/20 front/rear if I want to lay without poking tire through the hood. Not sure how the bed bullet/rail will interfere when laid out. I've considered a 510 rear suspension to get rear camber at drop, but then there's bolt pattern issues to deal with... Have to keep scoping the takeoff pile for some 20/25 series rubber before I really bother digging into fitment again. I'm less stuck on 20s than I was, thing with growing up is you learn what's really important ;)

 

In more excellent news, I've scored a running, driving, but extremely rusty (even for a datto) '77 for parts for $500, going to pick it up today! Pic dump later if I'm not wrenching all night.

[kaoss]

I think that you'd have the fender clearance to run a 20 in the front, but not the suspension travel. If I were to do mine again (bd on 17s was a bitch) I'd run a 92ish Toyota front clip. 

[lowdatsun620]

I think that you'd have the fender clearance to run a 20 in the front, but not the suspension travel. If I were to do mine again (bd on 17s was a bitch) I'd run a 92ish Toyota front clip.

 

I've considered that, is it that much more than HB travel? Even with 2" spindles, because that's seeming like the most likely option right now. Toyota I have to convert back to 6 lug to fit the titans anyways. I'm open to Z'ing the frame a bit too, but I know D21s will lay on 20 with only a UCA flip and spindles. I may not body drop if that's the difference between putting the tires through the hood, but I have to replace the floor anyways, WHY WOULDNT I body drop!?

 

I've seen a few 225 and 245/30 and 35 series tires on the local classifieds but they are included with rims already. One guy has 225/30's 2 new and 2 at 70% on decent rims for a HHR for only $825, I might see if he'll sell the rubber for $300. Money's tight after my new parts truck purchase though, so might have to wait.

[lowdatsun620]

Tired, so here's a pic to keep ya'll happy.

 

[kaoss]

I've considered that, is it that much more than HB travel? Even with 2" spindles, because that's seeming like the most likely option right now. Toyota I have to convert back to 6 lug to fit the titans anyways. I'm open to Z'ing the frame a bit too, but I know D21s will lay on 20 with only a UCA flip and spindles. I may not body drop if that's the difference between putting the tires through the hood, but I have to replace the floor anyways, WHY WOULDNT I body drop!?

 

I've seen a few 225 and 245/30 and 35 series tires on the local classifieds but they are included with rims already. One guy has 225/30's 2 new and 2 at 70% on decent rims for a HHR for only $825, I might see if he'll sell the rubber for $300. Money's tight after my new parts truck purchase though, so might have to wait.

 

 

 

I'm only going off my research, but from what I've read the early 90s toyota suspension is perfect for bagging. A HB clip would be fine also, and keep you 6 lug. 

[lowdatsun620]

I'm only going off my research, but from what I've read the early 90s toyota suspension is perfect for bagging. A HB clip would be fine also, and keep you 6 lug.

 

Yeah, I always hear of guys using the toy clip, but around here HB's are way easier to find, plus the mounting compatibility and keeping 6 lug. Apparently our pick n pull is 50% off right now for Canada Day and I know there's a HB with all front susp sitting there. I think I'm gonna head out there today. My setup got pretty rusty sitting in a Tupperware bin outside, seems best to replace.

[lowdatsun620]

So my membership at the PnP hasn't gone active yet so no 50% off. Good thing I only took UCAs today, $66 FML. Gotta hit wreckers next time I'm in Vancouver, competition AND selection, better for all. Ill have to find drop HB spindles, buy new balljoints and discs, and find some V6 calipers. Ill just clean up my drop LCAs, they're just a little surface rusted. I think I'll probably have to get some new hubs at some point.

 

Now gotta do the UCA flip.

[lowdatsun620]

Took rockers and cam off of head today. Is this thing ridiculously clean? I haven't hit it with cleaner or anything, but pretty sure there was lots of gas in that oil, might have helped clean it. Might have been rebuilt not too many miles ago, gaskets seemed newer, but chambers and outside were really dirty, so not sure.

 

This was the rear cam bearing. Pretty badly scored behind oil gallery. How does this get fixed? Bore towers and drop in new bearings? New towers?