Unable to start B210

[jboulukos]

My B210 has been sitting (death) for a while, approximately 9 months with 1 start up about 6 months ago for about 10 minutes running.  The car usually starts up after sitting.  I was going to put a NOS kyosan denki fuel pump in it today since it’s an original part to the car.  I had been using a cheap fuel pump for about 2 years.  So everything is good with the battery, starter is making normal noise when turning the key.   I looked at the carb float and it looks down. There is gas in the fuel filter. Not sure if there is gas inside the carb.  I wanted to get it out of the corner of the garage so I could pull it onto the ramps in order to change the fuel pump.  Can anyone provide some direction on this?  Spark and fuel and air.  It has newer spark plugs, wires, rotor.  However I didn’t change the coil since it was working. Maybe the aftermarket fuel pump?  Attached is a photo of the carb float window. 

[Macdrone]

if the float is down the fuel is not in the carb.  If you disconnect the fuel line to the carb and fuel comes out the stop valve is probaly bad.  Its in the rebuild kit.  Usually the float chamber is always half full.  The dot is the level it should be at.  If not I dont think the fuel is making it to the carb.

[jboulukos]

40 minutes ago, Macdrone said:

if the float is down the fuel is not in the carb.  If you disconnect the fuel line to the carb and fuel comes out the stop valve is probaly bad.  Its in the rebuild kit.  Usually the float chamber is always half full.  The dot is the level it should be at.  If not I dont think the fuel is making it to the carb.

I took off the 3 inch hose that leads to the carb and it was dry.  But shouldn’t it be? The fuel pump is mechanical and is situated lower than the carb so it pumps the fuel upward toward the carb.  Wouldn’t fuel just lower back down to the fuel pump when it’s sitting?  Should I add some furl directly to the carb in order to start the car and this get the fuel pump to pump the gas?  Thanks for the input!

[datzenmike]

The fuel pump has 2 one way valves that should prevent siphoning back down hill. Pour a couple of tablespoons of gas down the carb and start it up. This will allow the mechanical pump to get it up into the pump and push it into the carb. Might take 2-3 tries like this but it will work. 

[jboulukos]

18 hours ago, datzenmike said:

The fuel pump has 2 one way valves that should prevent siphoning back down hill. Pour a couple of tablespoons of gas down the carb and start it up. This will allow the mechanical pump to get it up into the pump and push it into the carb. Might take 2-3 tries like this but it will work. 

This worked. I poured about 3-5 ounces into the carb. Drive about 2 miles fine and strong, then started having hesitation and significant loss of power.  Drove back home at 15 mph with the hesitation having to push the gas pedal many times to keep power.  
I’m going to syphon the gas, change the fuel pump to an NOS Kyosan Denki, add new gas, look at the acceleration cable/throttle connection to the carb.  Let me know if I’m missing something.  The gas in the car is over a year old however I did put stabilizer in at that time. Maybe water build up in the fuel lines? Or poor quality old gas. It’s 89 octane too, but I am thinking that was unnecessary as I have always used 87.  
My Datsun is pissed at me. 
 

Edited September 14, 2020 by jboulukos

[datzenmike]

Change the fuel filter.

Sediment from the gas in the carburetor evaporating may be partly blocking the jets.

I wouldn't swap the pump yet until running. It obviously works and the new one is unknown.

 

Have a look at the plugs. If very light in color it indicates a lean mixture from blocked jets.

[jboulukos]

Update. Let it idle and warm up for 15 minutes today.  Idle seemed fine, so was reving the engine in park.   Started to drive it. Seemed great. Normal power.  And after about 2 miles, exact same location as yesterday, the engine started to sputter and loss of power. The engine stopped when I pressed the gas pedal.  Started it up and it started running weak for 30 seconds but then became normal again. 
i have a clear plastic fuel filter and I’m going to take a look at it to see if it caught some sediment as suggested.  I will just swap it out soon after I take care of some other errands.  

Edited September 15, 2020 by jboulukos

[datzenmike]

At the two mile point were you climbing a hill or using a lot of gas pedal?

[jboulukos]

15 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

At the two mile point were you climbing a hill or using a lot of gas pedal?

Hitting the gas after being stopped at a light.  It’s a busier street so I was just trying to keep a normal acceleration, which is quite hard versus modern cars and the Chicago way of driving.  So I was hitting the gas to trying to get it moving. No hill. 

[datzenmike]

Let me put it another way. At the 2 mile point was this the place where the engine had to work the hardest up till then? For example easy driving and them you had to accelerate to enter onto a highway?

[jboulukos]

1 minute ago, datzenmike said:

Let me put it another way. At the 2 mile point was this the place where the engine had to work the hardest up till then? For example easy driving and them you had to accelerate to enter onto a highway?

Probably.  It was the fastest the engine had to work from a stopped position going into acceleration.  All the other movements of the car were a little more easing into it.  

[datzenmike]

Then it's most likely your fuel filter. Just change it. They are cheap and should be changed every 3 years anyway.

[jboulukos]

On 9/14/2020 at 11:07 PM, datzenmike said:

Then it's most likely your fuel filter. Just change it. They are cheap and should be changed every 3 years anyway.

I changed the fuel filter.  $5 at Napa with a 2 day wait.  Worked well for a mile and then started the same issue with the power and the missing.  Sometimes pressing the pedal and getting a delayed stuttering response.  

[datzenmike]

It was worth the try and cheap.

 

 

Do you have a small glass window on the front of the carb??? Fuel level should be at the dot on the glass. Take it out and warm it up and then drive it hard till it begins to act up. When it does AS FAST AND SAFELY AS YOU CAN get the clutch in and the ignition off.. and pull over. What we are trying to do is see if the carburetor has run out of gas. If you don't get the clutch in and ignition off fast enough the spinning engine will fill the carburetor before you can stop. If it's full, the filter in the carburetor, the float level is good and the fuel pump working properly and can be discounted as the cause.

 

 

 

Next. The primary jet may be partly blocked with sediment and runs lean and poorly because it's not getting enough gas. When the engine is cold and warming up, the choke is on. The choke forces a rich condition which hides the underlying lean condition. Once the choke is shut off and the engine warmed up it runs lean.

[jboulukos]

2 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

It was worth the try and cheap.

 

 

Do you have a small glass window on the front of the carb??? Fuel level should be at the dot on the glass. Take it out and warm it up and then drive it hard till it begins to act up. When it does AS FAST AND SAFELY AS YOU CAN get the clutch in and the ignition off.. and pull over. What we are trying to do is see if the carburetor has run out of gas. If you don't get the clutch in and ignition off fast enough the spinning engine will fill the carburetor before you can stop. If it's full, the filter in the carburetor, the float level is good and the fuel pump working properly and can be discounted as the cause.

 

 

 

Next. The primary jet may be partly blocked with sediment and runs lean and poorly because it's not getting enough gas. When the engine is cold and warming up, the choke is on. The choke forces a rich condition which hides the underlying lean condition. Once the choke is shut off and the engine warmed up it runs lean.

The fuel filter was definitely worth the Initial try.  
I do have an window on the front of the carb. However I have an automatic trans,  so will the test still work if I check the window as you’ve described?   Great advice, I hope I don’t have to open up the carb.  I’ve cleaned and rebuilt it before. As I recall, 2 jets are accessible from the outside of the carb.  Are those the primary jets? 

[datzenmike]

Turn ignition off and slip into neutral ASAP. This will work. Done fast enough it will capture exactly what the carburetor is experiencing when the problem was ongoing.

[jboulukos]

I added 4.4 gallons of 87 octane and that seems to help everything. I will add another reply if the hesitation shows up again.  As for now I place on topping of the gas every 20 miles to get fresh gas in.   The previous gas was 89 octane with stabilizer and was 14 months old.  Not sure if this has an effect on the hesitation or not.   

[datzenmike]

I don't know what's up with your gas down there. If your gas tank is sealed it shouldn't absorb water from the air nor evaporate. My car sits from Sept to May with a half tank of gas. In that time an average of 36" of rain falls. Humidity 75% Sept. to 91% Dec. back to 75% March. My last gallon of gas for my weed eater lasted for 5 years. Every spring... prime, pull 4-5 time and away I go. Same with the car. 

 

I bought a 620 box with the attached gas tank. It sat at the wreckers for about 5 years, 3 years with the gas cap off because I took it. When I got it home there were about 4-5 gallons of bright piss yellow gas left in the tank.  I siphoned it through a fuel filter and threw in my truck. I noticed nothing different in the running.

 

Maybe they add something to the gas up here. Never had a problem never seen someone else with a problem.

[jboulukos]

I remember putting 89 octane in last time. I’ve been thinking that was not necessary and maybe even bad for this car.  What’s your take on that? 

[datzenmike]

Octane. The higher the octane rating the more resistant or less sensitive to ignition. This is helpful in high compression engines to reduce self ignition from compression heat or hot spots and a wast of money in lower ones. You could run 115 aviation fuel if you want with no harm done.

[jboulukos]

Just did 14 miles around town, gunning it, scooting around corners, pedal to the floor setting off the feature on the carb that opens the second valve electronically....all without hesitation.  Maybe the new fuel filter did help? Maybe the carb jet become unclogged?  

[datzenmike]

This is a stock Hitachi B-210 carburetor???? The secondary is opened by vacuum not electrically.

 

Yes indeed driving it can clear out issues. Dirty plugs are self cleaning if you drive them long enough when warmed up. Something in the carburetor may have been dissolved from fresh gas running through it.

[jboulukos]

Yes hitachi carb original style.  I thought the secondary opened with the gas pedal? It’s a 1978.  If I press the pedal down to much too soon I hear a big vroom.  I guess vacuum then.  

[datzenmike]

The throttle only opens the primary barrel. Vacuum produced by the primary venturi is applied to a diaphragm on the secondary. AS the engine load and speed increases so does the vacuum eventually starting the secondary to open. The secondary also has a venturi and this vacuum is also added to the diaphragm pulling it open in proportion the increasing air flow. When the throttle is released the loss of primary venturi vacuum closes the secondary by a spring on the diaphragm. There is an interlock that blocks the secondary from opening if the throttle is less than about 1/2 open. 

 

The Weber 32/36 in contrast has a progressive secondary where the primary has a linkage that pulls the secondary open mechanically weather needed or not. Any throttle above about 60% is into the secondary.  The Hitachi only opens when the engine needs it and will generally give better mileage.