510 won't go into gear.

[Acuna989]

Car- 71 Datsun 510

Tranmission - 280zx Five speed

 

Was out driving around yesterday and when I was taking off from a stop my car would not go into gear. The car does go into gear when the engine is turned off but once I try to start it, the car dies like I dont even have the clutch in.  After towing it home with my wifes truck I put another 280 five speed in. Finished up around 2am last night. After refilling the fluids and starting it up this morning it still has the same isuue. Now im thinking pressure plate ????

[LenRobertson]

Have you looked at the clutch slave cylinder on the side of the bell housing while someone pushes the clutch pedal? The slave should be moving the clutch fork about an inch or so (can't quite remember the correct figure). Problem could be the pressure plate but I would be certain the clutch hydraulics are all good. Not at all unusual for master or slave cylinder to go bad.

 

It is worth reading this thread though:

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/55919-silkys-clutch-finally-fixed/

In that case, it turned out to be the PP, not the hydraulics.

 

Len

[Acuna989]

Thought about looking at the slave cylinder but I had nobody at home to give me a hand. Tomorrow I think ill throw my phone under the car and try to get a video of it. I also used the through out bearing that was on the 280zx transmission since it looked like it was in way better condition. Are those bearings interchangable? I think it looked slightly bigger in diameter.

[Acuna989]

Anther thing to note is that the car still has a normal about of resistance in the clutch pedal.

[Silky_Johnson]

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/55919-silkys-clutch-finally-fixed/

 

I just got done fixing a clutch.  The above thread was my process.  I'm not saying that you will have the same problem I had, but maybe you may be experiencing the same thing?  Mine turned out to be the pressure plate.

[Acuna989]

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/55919-silkys-clutch-finally-fixed/

 

I just got done fixing a clutch. The above thread was my process. I'm not saying that you will have the same problem I had, but maybe you may be experiencing the same thing? Mine turned out to be the pressure plate.

Sounds similar. The only difference is your problem seemed gradual and mine was basically instantaneous. I'm not 100% sure but I think that I have a roadster PP already installed, so it might be a common issue. Didn't even think to inspect the clutch and PP while I was in there, huge mistake in hindsight.

 

Guess ill be ordering either the roadster clutch kit http://www.datsunparts.com/search.cgi or the Exedy stage 1 organic kit. Anybody have experience with both ? kinda leaning towards the gredy kit. My plans for the near future is a 2.3 Lz stroker and some autocross.

[datzenmike]

Thought about looking at the slave cylinder but I had nobody at home to give me a hand. Tomorrow I think ill throw my phone under the car and try to get a video of it. I also used the through out bearing that was on the 280zx transmission since it looked like it was in way better condition. Are those bearings interchangable? I think it looked slightly bigger in diameter.

.

Just look at the clutch master reservoir.. does it have fluid in it. If not it may be leaking. The Roadster clutch is rather stiff and may blow out an old slave.

 

Also never ever use an old throw out bearing. You can save $15 -$20 but a month later you may have to take it out and replace it because it's worn out.

 

Now.... did you use just the bearing or did you use the collar it was pressed onto as well? If so they are miss matched to the Roadster clutch you have. Z car clutches are at least 225mm and some are 240mm. The Roadster clutch is 200mm. If you have the stock 4 speed release bearing collar you need to put it back in the car. (new bearing of course)

[Silky_Johnson]

Sounds similar. The only difference is your problem seemed gradual and mine was basically instantaneous. I'm not 100% sure but I think that I have a roadster PP already installed, so it might be a common issue. Didn't even think to inspect the clutch and PP while I was in there, huge mistake in hindsight.

 

Guess ill be ordering either the roadster clutch kit http://www.datsunparts.com/search.cgi or the Exedy stage 1 organic kit. Anybody have experience with both ? kinda leaning towards the gredy kit. My plans for the near future is a 2.3 Lz stroker and some autocross.

 

On the contrary - everything was fine until one day, my clutch just kind of popped.  I checked under the hood, and the master was dry.  I thought that indicated the problem, but I was wrong.  Two new sets of hydraulics later, and the problem still wasn't fixed.  I didn't know the pressure could go in one day like that, and it just happened to be a coincidence that the master was dry.  I still don't know how to explain that.

 

I think you're already on to this, but when push comes to shove, if you know the tranny is good, and if you can verify that the hydraulics are good, there is only one other place to look for the problem.

 

The clutch kit on datsunparts.com looks good, ableit maybe a touch spendy?

[Acuna989]

Just look at the clutch master reservoir.. does it have fluid in it. If not it may be leaking. The Roadster clutch is rather stiff and may blow out an old slave.

 

Resivoir is good and the slave cylinder is engaging. I know the tranmission is good cause I replaced it with another relatively low mile 280zx trans.

 

 

Also never ever use an old throw out bearing. You can save $15 -$20 but a month later you may have to take it out and replace it because it's worn out.

I feel you on that one but was trying to make it to work the next day and didn't have much of a choice.

 

 

Now.... did you use just the bearing or did you use the collar it was pressed onto as well? If so they are miss matched to the Roadster clutch you have. Z car clutches are at least 225mm and some are 240mm. The Roadster clutch is 200mm. If you have the stock 4 speed release bearing collar you need to put it back in the car. (new bearing of course)

not really sure what I have as of clutch kit and size. I work basically four days straight so I won't have a chance to look at it until Sunday. I pulled the trigger this morning on a 225mm Exedy stage 1. Figure if worse comes to worse I will have to track down a 280zx NA flywheel.

[Acuna989]

It's kinda of late to ask but, what's the difference in drivability between a 200mm/Roadster Kit vs a 225mm kit on a 1600 engine with a 280zx 5 speed? Pro's/cons. I have a sinking feeling that I ordered the wrong kit due to the weight increase that comes with the 225mm flywheel. 

[datzenmike]

There is a one year only 5 bolt crank shaft 225mm flywheel that will fit an L16. I doubt you have found one of those. Without it, a 225mm clutch is not going to bolt up.

 

Flywheels are about the same weight. Only the pressure plate bolt patterns are different. 200mm is rather heavy on the pedal I hear. The Roadster clutch is the one you want.

[Acuna989]

There is a one year only 5 bolt crank shaft 225mm flywheel that will fit an L16. I doubt you have found one of those. Without it, a 225mm clutch is not going to bolt up.

 

Flywheels are about the same weight. Only the pressure plate bolt patterns are different. 200mm is rather heavy on the pedal I hear. The Roadster clutch is the one you want.

Cool man, thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. The 510 is just sitting in my garage right now. It's my daily driver at the moment so I'm looking to get this kit ASAP. I kinda jumped the gun on getting the Exedy kit. It's not a total loss though cause I can use it on the LZ 2.3 that I'm saving up for. The block used on that build is a z22 from a 720 with a 6 bolt flywheel. Just found that out about two seconds ago. Makes me feel way better lol.

[Acuna989]

Ended up having a couple issues. The PP is pretty blown out and my clutch disc is disintegrated. I'm guessing the clutch disc might have been made in china.

New roadster kit from rising sun racing. The kit came with a pilot bearing, it's just not in the pic.

[Acuna989]

So I got everything put back together with the new kit, all was good for about a week until I started having issues again. After doing some more research I realized that the clutch sleeve that I reused was from a 280. I ordered a new 510 sleeve from Nissan and installed it yesterday. Now i'm back to square one, the car has the same symptoms of my original post. Here's a video of the master slave at work. 

 

http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/Datsun989/media/015033D0-6DDB-45E3-BB2D-6573A8DCAC63-360-000000E4267EC5FB_zps82f34478.mp4.html

 

 

 

 

 

It seems the hydraulic system is working. I'm thinking I might have trashed the new PP by having the wrong sleeve in. Any opinions ?????

[LenRobertson]

Any updates on your problem? I don't have any ideas except agree with you that the wrong sleeve may have damaged the PP. I suspect the 280 sleeve is longer than the 510 one and lets the TO bearing ride the PP fingers all the time, but I'm curious what you find out.

 

Len

[datzenmike]

Len it's my understanding that the diaphragm fingers are further from the flywheel surface as the pressure plate diameter increases. A 240mm PP is taller than a 225mm PP which is taller than a 200mm PP. So to center all clutch arm geometry the release bearing collars should be shorter on the 240mmPP and longer towards the 225mm and longest on the 200mm PP.

 

A shorter 225mm or 240mm release collar on a 200mm PP will not push the fingers far enough to disengage the clutch properly.

 

A longer 200mm release collar might damage a taller 225mm or 240mm PP.

[Acuna989]

 

 

Just measured the old sleeve, the part number is 30501-0h600 designed for a 240mm pp. Its definitely longer than the 30501-n1604 (510 sleeve). I ordered another roadster kit so Ill measure the diaphragm spring to old one when I take it apart on Monday. I hoping its something else since the price just sky rocketed on the OEM roaster kits. The first one cost me 300. Ordered the same kit two weeks later, cost me 425  :blush:

[LenRobertson]

You said "...all was good for about a week...". Did the clutch work really well, or not so well, but did work? From what datzenmike posted about the 280 sleeve being too short for the 200mm PP, it doesn't seem like the clutch should have worked at all, or at least not worked well. But I'm probably missing something obvious.

 

I'd been thinking I needed a roadster clutch, cause that is whats cool, but the prices you posted cured me of that fantasy. Yikes on the price!

 

Len

[Acuna989]

Worked really good for about two weeks until I decided to slide a U-turn. Popped the clutch real hard, after that reverse was impossible to get into and all gears were grinding. When I replaced the sleeve the pressure plate didn't look damaged, it had some wear marks on the springs from the throughout bearing but nothing crazy.The only reason I repurchased the same kit is because of the overall improvement. It makes the car a blast to drive. Somebody sells a roadster kit on eBay for 200

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Datsun-Roadster-NEW-complete-clutch-kit-Datsun-Fairlady-/300938891322?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item46115b103a&vxp=mtr

 

Not sure of the quality, this being the fourth time dropping the transmission in a couple weeks I didn't feel like the risk was worth the money.  I'm going to replace the slave and bleed the system tomorrow just to make sure its not a hydraulic issue. I would do it today but i'm severely hungover......

[banzai510(hainz)]

when using a Roadster set up use all the 510 spec stuff like the AT/O bearing and sleeve.

 

make sure the flyweel is resurfaced.

I personally still use the 510 slave cylinder and the rod that goes in the 510 slave as it the threaded half moon ball on there.I can actully see my adjustment if it 1/8 loose at the slave.

 

The later 200sx slave is the same but the rod size is be different and use the clutch fork with the cup. So no real adjustment. the 200sx L20 200 mm the clutch the diaprame height is different.

the stock 510 and Roadster pressure plate is actually the same diaphrame height. thus using the 510/521 200mm T/O bearing and sleeve.

 

 

importrp.com has Aisin disc or daiken.

[Acuna989]

What I have in the car right now is:

Wide ration 280 trans

OEM(Nissan) Roadster PP

OEM(Nissan) 510 sleeve

OEM (Datsun) throughout/pilot bearing 200mm

Aisin Clutch disc

280 fork and slave

 

Just replaced the slave with a 280 replacement from Orielys and bled the system. I'm able to get into all gears now except for reverse, where it immediately grinds. I don't have the reverse lockout hooked up yet. I was under the impression that it just prevents you from getting into reverse when the car is already moving...........Maybe the slave needs to bled more

[Acuna989]

Just got done bleeding the system again. Got the car on the road this time but the only way I could get into gear without grinding is to put my foot almost to the floor, kinda weird cause I can feel the clutch disengaging way before that. reverse now goes in but only if I do a quick shift from fifth gear. I'm kinda lost at this point so I guess ill go ahead and replace the master cylinder and clutch line. I'm not loosing any fluid anywhere but I figure it can hurt anything except my wallet.  

[Acuna989]

YEAH BUDDY! Clutch is finally fixed. Switches gears like butter and I only have to depress the pedal about an inch. My last issue was a bad throughout bearing. Not too surprised since it was an original Datsun bearing and I never packed it with grease.

[datzenmike]

You should ALWAYS replace high wear items like this that are not easily gotten to to eplace. Nothing like swapping a transmission and two months later the original old throw out bearing starts screaming. This means pulling everything out again. Well lesson learned. Glad you got it going so well.

 

I thought the release bearing needed grease but others have said they are sealed and come to think of it, maybe they are. Maybe I'm remembering changing my Dodge clutches?

[Acuna989]

I used a new bearing the first time around, Well kinda. It was an original Datsun manufactured bearing. It even came with a little tiny bit of rust on the outside, there's a pic on the first page of it.  The one I replaced it with was a new manufactured bearing from Nissan. I'm not really sure why it went out. Could have been due to age, being too aggressive with it on the install or something to do with having the wrong sleeve. I'm just happy I can drive the car now. 

 

The bearing does come pre packed and sealed, there are some spots that you can pack some grease into. I don't think it can hurt as long as you wipe off ALL the excess so it doesn't go flying on the clutch plate once everything starts to heat up.