Siqx20 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 So I was doing some browsing on minitruckin and came across this article. http://www.minitruckinweb.com/tech/suspension/0312mt_1991_nissan_hardbody_four_link_rear_suspension_install/index.html the questions i have is I have always heard its bad to run only bushing ends instead of say heims. It looks like they are only running bushings on this truck. I personally think that bushings look cleaner and was originally the way i wanted to go. but was convinced otherwise. What are some pro's and cons' to running only bushings instead of heims? thanks for the feedback Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 i have heims in my mazda thats bagged for the last ten years.... i like heims but they are noisey and get noiseier...am switching to a wishbone and swapping to all bushinged....my bagged fullsize runs all bushings and its a paralell with a panhard and is whisper quiet and rock solid....both 521s will end up bushinged with triangulated four links...heims look cool i just dont wanna repalce them so often....and by loud i meantn not constitent but every good bump u here them...and thats is annoying.... they stazrted pout quiet but like i said ttrucks ten years old and replaced them once already and there ready again i have never heard of using all bushings being a bad idea.... it works for leaf springs not sure why it wouldnt in 4 link land Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 the one ton in my avatar also was fully and still is fully bushinged and it was super quiet even towing boats.....the 35 series rubber were noisier than any of the bag setup... u will get some that say they flex... but trust me i put bushings to the test through hauling my drag boat and gansta leaning and driving them hardand fast at times..... never once had a issue..., but like i said the only issue i have with heims was the noise ... that shit bugs me....if u ever been in a race car u know the noise... Quote Link to comment
pope_face Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I don't know much (ok, really anything) about this, but I'll give you my uneducated guess... By the looks of it, heims have a solid, swiveling bearing inside the end, correct? I assume the bushings you're referring to are either a metal sleeve, or something like polyurethane. I would suspect the benefit of heims would be that they can adapt to a greater range of motion, including laterally... I suspect you're referring to a four-link on a solid rear axle, so my assumption is that you'd run the links parallel to the body of the truck. If you use a bushing (again, by which I'm assuming you mean a simple sleeve inside the end of the link), it'll only be able to rotate in one direction: Up and down. That is what you want, you'd only have the truck supported at (essentially) two points: The airbags (or shocks/whatever you use), and the chassis end of the four-links. This is fine when you're just parked and showing off your truck, or driving in a straight line, but once you start trying to change direction, the momentum of the body/chassis will keep it moving in the same direction as before, while the wheels are trying to make the vehicle turn. This will causes lateral force on the linkage between the chassis and the drivetrain, which is the suspension. If you use a regular "bushing", this lateral force will cause it to twist sideways against the mount (instead of up/down like it was designed to), causing it to bind up and preventing it from rotating up and down... If this happens, your suspension won't work, and (if you go around a corner fast enough) could cause loss of traction to the rear wheels (which would be a very bad thing). I suppose this could happen if you drop one side of the axle more than the other as well (in this case, you would be torquing the bushing along the parallel axis to the car, instead of laterally). On the other hand, if heim bushings are what I think they are, then with that setup (four-link parallel to chassis of the truck) they could take a bit of lateral motion, as well as the up/down motion they're meant for. So, if the axle shifts laterally in relation to the chassis, or if you drop one side of the axle more than the other, you'll still have "normal" suspension function. Then again, I have no experience with this sort of stuff... I'm just going by some basic physics and what I know about cars. I don't actually know what you're referring to by bushings and heims, so I'm simply going off a quick Google search and my knowledge. Someone else should give you a better idea, but there's my two cents. Quote Link to comment
Siqx20 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 you both make good points. the problem i was hearing with bushings is that when u get separate axle articulation it causes the bushing ends jam nut to back off on account of ur not getting as much articulation as a heim. I would assume minitruckin (the link i posted) to know what they are talking about when it comes to bagging trucks as that is all they do just about. Im not really into 3 wheelin articulation or side to side articulation but they are. and they plan on doing it with that hardbody, they even say so when discussing the switch panel setup. if bushings didnt work as well why would they use them? the concept of heims makes more sense honestly im just not a fan of how they look and apparently they are noisy? Im not down for that so if i can keep away from them i would like to. Im going to be running almost that exact same setup they are doing. parallel bar on bar with a triangulated upper. Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 allright well i am not up and up on hitting sides or dog legging, mine are made to be used and sit very low ....i have never heard of the jam nut issue backing off ever and to me seems if u are putting ernough load lateral to do that u are risking breaking a heim right off or a bushinged end.... plus no datsun can go fast enough to put the kinda forces on a fourlink like that...unless its dropped from space.. Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 oh and parralel are nice but i would do a tri angulated or wishbone...as parrallel needs a panhard and through the travel of the suspension it will move the rear end form side to side.. i run a very long panhard bar in both the dually and my 1/2 ton....the 1/2 ton limits my rear wheel spacing with the 1/2" of left to right moevment through the arc of the panhard bar....i can feel it through the truck at highways speeds if i go from full pressure to none...not through the steering... it drives nice and fine and i love it cause parralele allows my faCTORY FUEL TANK LOCATION....oops.... if i did it again i would go wish bone so i wont be limited in rear wheel back spacing...unless your planning on driving around full pressure one side and not in the other or suck a wheel in dog leggin....i think bushings will be fine... this is what i tell peeps that wanna do this ... u planning on driving the truck regular and want it worry free and quiet then bushings are for u .....u wanna hit sides, do some doglegging or hop the think on some scuba tanks go heims but just know they progressviely get louder and sloppier when used regularly as is daily or more than once a week....another analogu i like to use..... rubber gets u home and chrome gets u blown.... Quote Link to comment
Siqx20 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 well my uppers are triangulated that should keep my rear end square. haha i like that analogy. thank you for all the input im not planning on doing any crazy tricks or articulation. I just want my shit to ride low and drag. Its gonna be my summertime DD so i want a smooth ride. thats the thing with static drops. they ride low and shitty I want low and smooth lol. Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 but there again i didn't take a class i got real world expiernece....its funny if pope man is right then all the majormanufactures of fourlink made to be used .... i e not shade tree minitruckers( like myself...)...people like kelderman, airlift, ride tech...i have used all the kits and they all use bushings even the triangulated kits....partly why i adapted the theory.... theres a reason why heims are on race cars and bushings are on street cars.... race cars parts are made for day to day use...stregth wise yes longevity no.....sure therree are some sic new heims but i tried them even lubed they all wear out and become noisey...even in nascars all there training arms are bushing to compensate for side load and heims are proven to fail in that load;even 6061/7071.... oh i got another one i use ....rubber gets u dates while heims could ossibly seal your fate... all my heim failures have be catastrophic failures....u kill a bushing it will staty attached to the rod end... u snap a heim thats plane dangerous...stick a four link bar straight in the aspahlt during your hard turn would be way more dangerous when it poles vaults your ass into the ditch....plus every heim joint manufacturer clearly states for off road use... mid u i have had heims in duty for ten plus years and thirty some thousand miles...but will be removing them when i finish my narrowed rear end for my mazda it will be going back a wishbone with bushings....i alos believe the slop in my heims contirbuted to a major pinion bearing failure and at highway speeds when your rear end pinion bearings seizes its like pulling the e brake at 75.... snapped the clutch twice and free'd it up pulled over and inhaled smokey gear oil like i was cheech and chong...farging most expensive rear end re build i ever did and i built 9", danas, and gm corprate shit... Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 remeber though in air bags psi/pressure is your spring rate so to ride low u run very low spring rate and big bumps will easily bounce u into terra firma causing potnetial loss of control...heres what saved me the few times in the weather i lost control... if u cant correct the slide go to zero pressure immediately... there's no emrgnecy brake like draggin your truck to a stop...saved me twice last winter when i was driving like a ass hole...go bushinged sounds like u are like me....drive it and drop that shit on itself when parked...or almost parked... Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 thanks for the sig love too... i think i should right a book all the forums i am on i think i am the most used sig quote on all... what can i say ...i say alot of stupid shit... Quote Link to comment
Siqx20 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 remeber though in air bags psi/pressure is your spring rate so to ride low u run very low spring rate and big bumps will easily bounce u into terra firma causing potnetial loss of control...heres what saved me the few times in the weather i lost control... if u cant correct the slide go to zero pressure immediately... there's no emrgnecy brake like draggin your truck to a stop...saved me twice last winter when i was driving like a ass hole...go bushinged sounds like u are like me....drive it and drop that shit on itself when parked...or almost parked... for sure i will be running shock on my rig as well. I always laugh when i see these guys all mini truckin and all this money into compressors, valves, and bags but no shocks 0.o sounds like a bouncy shitty ride to me. Quote Link to comment
pope_face Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 but there again i didn't take a class i got real world expiernece....its funny if pope man is right then all the majormanufactures of fourlink made to be used .... i e not shade tree minitruckers( like myself...)...people like kelderman, airlift, ride tech...i have used all the kits and they all use bushings even the triangulated kits....partly why i adapted the theory.... theres a reason why heims are on race cars and bushings are on street cars.... race cars parts are made for day to day use...stregth wise yes longevity no.....sure therree are some sic new heims but i tried them even lubed they all wear out and become noisey...even in nascars all there training arms are bushing to compensate for side load and heims are proven to fail in that load;even 6061/7071.... Like I said, no actual experience with these setups, so I'm just going off what makes sense to me. But, I never thought about the triangulated vs parallel setups before, so that's why having knowledgeable people on the forum is so important. So, perhaps bushings vs heims is more about personal preference than what's actually ideal... Quote Link to comment
jrock4224 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 So, perhaps bushings vs heims is more about personal preference than what's actually ideal... exactly, after all my sayings i still tell anyone ultimately it is your car and u should use whats best for u.....but i really like your analitical viewpoint, very articulated in presentation.... thats funny when i built my mazda.... they shipped no shockmounts... i called the old fbiminis before they were a joke(rollpansusa or some bullshit...)...and asked how come, and the guy says no one runs shocks...or sway bars... I was like I dont care send me them, its want shocks I want my sway bar and the kid acted like I was crazy....back late 90's, I was like really no shocks sounds about annoying. they sent them I put them on and drove the shat out of that truck on 4th motor now Quote Link to comment
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