Off road engine hoist

[frankendat]

Unexpected joys from the "approved fix" of graveling my back yard. (The city forced a "fix" after it was discovered I parked a Datsun back there. (long story on another thread).

 

The unexpected joy is my engine hoist will no longer traverse around in the back. The engine hoist required modification to travel on gravel. As always, what makes a complicated project is serious shortage of cash. 

Considered a straight steel pipe for an axle, but settled on 2 26mm 10.9 grade bolts, (expensive) 2 Honda wheel hubs (cheap) 1 piece of 1 inch thick steel plate (salvage) Steel was bored for the 26mm bolt and for 3/8 flange bolts 2 grade 8 (expensive) and 2 grade 5 (on hand)
 

 

Bolts, steel and nuts

 

The wheel hub 26mm nut and 9 thin washers necessary for the nut to stick up far enough to be tightened.

[frankendat]

 

 

 

The bolt put through the hole in the 1 inch steel plate, welded in on both sides and painted (to hide my shit welding) The grade 8 and grade 5 bolts hold the plate/bolt inside the harbor freight engine hoist tube.

Lawn tractor tires mounted to the hubs and the off road engine hoist is underway!

 

[frankendat]

As this is being published on the internet, there is a chance, albeit slim, that someone lacking sense, might attempt this modification to their engine hoist. Therefore, it should be noted, that by using the beefiest bolt that I could reasonable fit. I choose one bigger than the axle prescribed for the Honda Hubs. The bolts that take the 26mm nuts fit, but the axle nuts included with the Honda Hub do not fit. If a bolt the same size as a Honda axle is utilized, then the purchase of extra nuts would not be required. 

Edited March 4 by frankendat

[frankendat]

The engine hoist was $20 without a hydraulic ram

A new ram for the engine hoist was $40

I don't have a bit that will cut 26mm holes in hardened steel and had to farm out the drilling. I had the shop do the 3/8 top to bottom holes at the same time. 
$150 (That really hurt)

Tires free

Grade 10.9 and Grade 8 bolts $40
Paint, misc. bolts/washers -on hand. 

I am going to try it with the original metal wheels on the front. I am hopeful with the new rake of the engine hoist and the big back tires, the front wheels will not excessively dig into the gravel. I was unable to find large solid swiveling wheels for cheap. 
So far, I am into this project for $250 and I think that will be it. I will update if further additions or expenses are necessary. 

 

[frankendat]

Couldn't sleep and realized I missed the Honda wheel hubs in my tally. They were $10 each off Marketplace. Puts the total at $270.
The model of engine hoist, that I acquired, came with six casters. The two at the back, that I replaced with lawn tractor tires, two a little farther down the lower extending arms and two at the ends of the lower extending arms. I have two more lawn tractor tires.

 

Considering mounting the additional lawn tractor tires at the caster points a little farther down the lower extending arms, that would provide four tire stability, albeit with a short wheelbase. 

 

Concerned with the boom, a longer wheel base is necessary. When an engine is mounted, the hoist will want to tip forward. But, will it be a constant pulling forward? If the lower extending arms are mounted with 4 lawn tractor tires, the end of the extending arms will be a few inches above the ground. This would provide a fail safe if the engine pulled the hoist over. But, if it is unbalanced the extended arms will just plow into the ground and it won't go.

I am spitballing here before attempting in case there is an obvious reason it will not work that I am missing.

[frankendat]

This is the hoist, but mine is gray. The picture shows the mounting points for the casters. A fellow on Youtube built one with lawn tractor tires. He put two at the back, like mine and mounted to the very front, by drilling holes through the sides and mounting wheel hubs. Doing this means the hoist can only travel straight forward and straight back. I was spitballing the shorter wheelbase with lawn tractor tires, because I thought it would be easier to turn. 

The simplest and cheapest would be to leave the remaining factory casters alone. The middle casters will not touch the ground and the hopefully the end casters will not dig to much in the gravel.

[iceman510]

I'll be interested to see how this functions.  Pneumatic tires even on pavement would be nice, as mine is a bear to move.

[datzenmike]

The biggest impediment to rolling, even on pavement, is the small diameter wheels. I had almost the same engine hoist and it was an absolute bitch to position. Larger diameter pneumatic tires would help but will they need to be running as high a pressure as possible and be able to handle the weight.

 

All the tires should be on castors. 

[frankendat]

The format of this post could be weird. I

 

If I understand, then you are saying replace all casters with the larger tires. Any thoughts about the short wheel base. As I mentioned, a long wheel base non swivel 4 tractor tire engine hoist has been built on youtube and functions well, it is just difficult to turn.

 

I could try compromise and cut the lower long arms back a couple feet, so the additional non turning tractor tires would be farther forward then where the middle casters mount but not as far as where the end casters mount. 

[datzenmike]

Without the ability to swivel you can only go forward and back. Rather than a three point turn it would be a 25 point turn. You could get by with the rear two on swivels. 

[frankendat]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Without the ability to swivel you can only go forward and back. Rather than a three point turn it would be a 25 point turn. You could get by with the rear two on swivels. 

That was the conclusion I reached, but thought you might have a different angle.

Raining heavy today, project delayed. Which, unfortunately, gives time to think. The thought is to use scaffolding casters (large diameter) on the ends of the long supports on the bottom. The configuration would then be tractor tires at the back, the middle casters suspended and not touching the ground and the scaffolding casters at the front.

 

The scaffolding casters are vertical mount, so only a hole drilled vertically through the end of the lower long support would be needed. The necessity of a separate hub would also be eliminated. The scaffolding wheels are solid and rated at 500lb each, so heavy duty enough. There is a pair on marketplace for $40. The concern is loss of integrity of the long support arms at the point where the hole is drilled and the project breaching $300 (Even DIY is so damn expensive) Best route would be to reinforce the the long bottom support arms where the holes are drilled, by welding is some steel, but if the fellow with the scaffolding casters answers back (and there are not any serious problems that I am overlooking in their employment) I will just be going for it. 


 

Edited Wednesday at 11:01 PM by frankendat

[wayno]

I am unsure what you're trying to accomplish, getting the hoist over gravel or work with the hoist on gravel, if you are trying to move the hoist across gravel I just use a hand truck with 10" pneumatic tires from Harbor Freight like the ones in this engine stand in the photo below, the hoist is heavy but I keep it moving and under control, I moved mine over rough areas over the last few days as it is much easier than trying to roll the hoist on pavers, today the guy let me move it my way out to the engine to put the engine in the truck, but when I was not looking he moved it back to the side of my house himself using them shit castors.

 

 

You can see I used a tractor in that photo, but I can also put a castor type 10" pneumatic wheel near the hitch that I use a lug wrench as an arm to control direction the engine run stand, I can roll on grass, dirt, just about any surface that is semi level, Mike Klots sent a stand with a VG30 engine on it I bought, that stand is in this photo, you can see the handles on the left back, I put steel castor swivel wheels on the back because that SD25 diesel engine is freaking heavy but 4 pneumatic wheels would have worked by lifting the back with the handles to turn direction.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 01:42 AM by wayno

[datzenmike]

 

Most of the weight is to the front. Put casters on the rear.

[frankendat]

3 hours ago, wayno said:

I am unsure what you're trying to accomplish, getting the hoist over gravel or work with the hoist on gravel, if you are trying to move the hoist across gravel I just use a hand truck with 10" pneumatic tires from Harbor Freight like the ones in this engine stand in the photo below, the hoist is heavy but I keep it moving and under control, I moved mine over rough areas over the last few days as it is much easier than trying to roll the hoist on pavers, today the guy let me move it my way out to the engine to put the engine in the truck, but when I was not looking he moved it back to the side of my house himself using them shit castors.

 

 

You can see I used a tractor in that photo, but I can also put a castor type 10" pneumatic wheel near the hitch that I use a lug wrench as an arm to control direction the engine run stand, I can roll on grass, dirt, just about any surface that is semi level, Mike Klots sent a stand with a VG30 engine on it I bought, that stand is in this photo, you can see the handles on the left back, I put steel castor swivel wheels on the back because that SD25 diesel engine is freaking heavy but 4 pneumatic wheels would have worked by lifting the back with the handles to turn direction.

 

 

 

Good info. I need to move engines and other heavy things across gravel and/or lawn to get items to the house or the garage, or from the driveway to the garage etc. I only need to move this engine 2 or 3 yards, but it is too big to hand truck, to awkward and heavy to talk my friends into helping. (they are old too) I will lift the engine out of the truck (where it has lived for the last month) with the hoist, push the hoist across the gravel and lawn to the hard dirt floor garage. (Its not cement but in most areas it is harder than dirt (it might have been cement at one time, the garage was once a stable and coal storage, it is not powered and was built in 1910) transfer the engine to a stand and put the engine hoist in a back corner somewhere. At least that has been the plan. I catch the betters really easy, once I start messing with something. I start to see all the ways I could make it better. It is almost a good thing that I am broke. If I had cash, then I am sure we would be talking about automating the engine hoist somehow, whether it should be electric or hydraulically propelled or a hybrid and if tracks would chew up the lawn.  

[frankendat]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

Most of the weight is to the front. Put casters on the rear.

I guess this is where I admit to being a simpleton or we are talking different about the front and the back. I see the back as where the red crane part lives. There some things bouncing around in my head about the increase of force/weight the farther something is placed from the fulcrum on a lever but then I remember something about that calculation changing given the angle. I put these smokey thoughts in a bag, with the physical evidence that the designer of this particular hoist placed double the casters and triple the support at the back where the red crane lives and that seems proof positive the back carries more weight than the front. Please supply your bag of evidence to the contrary.

 

I should mention that I already spent hard earned mounting the big wheels to the back (where the red part of the crane lives in the picture, but mine is gray) So, even if your provide rock solid evidence that casters would be better suited where the big tires are located. Hopefully, the inner satisfaction of being right will carry you through, because I ain't changing it now. 

Edited Thursday at 05:03 AM by frankendat

[datzenmike]

Empty, the center of gravity is more to the rear or left of the center, probably near where the middle pair of wheels are, but that quickly moves towards the front or right as weight is added. 

[frankendat]

13 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Empty, the center of gravity is more to the rear or left of the center, probably near where the middle pair of wheels are, but that quickly moves towards the front or right as weight is added. 

You believe less weight on the casters is best for movement-turning and when there is an engine hanging, more weight will transfer forward (right) so casters would best serve at the back (left). Correct?

[datzenmike]

Six of one, half dozen of the other.  I think steering from the back where you stand would be easier when pushing or pulling a load.

[wayno]

19 hours ago, frankendat said:

Good info. I need to move engines and other heavy things across gravel and/or lawn to get items to the house or the garage, or from the driveway to the garage etc. I only need to move this engine 2 or 3 yards, but it is too big to hand truck, to awkward and heavy to talk my friends into helping. (they are old too) I will lift the engine out of the truck (where it has lived for the last month) with the hoist, push the hoist across the gravel and lawn to the hard dirt floor garage. (Its not cement but in most areas it is harder than dirt (it might have been cement at one time, the garage was once a stable and coal storage, it is not powered and was built in 1910) transfer the engine to a stand and put the engine hoist in a back corner somewhere. At least that has been the plan. I catch the betters really easy, once I start messing with something. I start to see all the ways I could make it better. It is almost a good thing that I am broke. If I had cash, then I am sure we would be talking about automating the engine hoist somehow, whether it should be electric or hydraulically propelled or a hybrid and if tracks would chew up the lawn.  

 

I am not seeing the whole picture I guess, if the engine is in a truck, roll the truck to where you want the engine, I have rolled 6000+ rolling weight with my starter when the engine quit running, the cops showed up a minute later after it died and said it had to be towed/removed from the road so I used the starter for 50 feet, the cop left visibly shaking his head, I had it started in a couple minutes and the cop would not let me do it where it was, the matchbox connections needed to be tighter, once I got home I fixed the issue, still works fine to this day over a decade later.

 

My suggestion was for moving an empty engine hoist across rough ground with a hand truck, what about putting the engine on one of them garden carts/wagons with four pneumatic 10" tires, two of them tires hold a very heavy SD25 diesel engine for me in my second photo 22 hours ago, plus you will find other uses for one of them carts, just sit the engine on the 4 pneumatic wheel 4 carts, strap it in position and someone pushes while the other pulls/steers.

 

 

[frankendat]

1 hour ago, wayno said:

 

I am not seeing the whole picture I guess, if the engine is in a truck, roll the truck to where you want the engine, I have rolled 6000+ rolling weight with my starter when the engine quit running, the cops showed up a minute later after it died and said it had to be towed/removed from the road so I used the starter for 50 feet, the cop left visibly shaking his head, I had it started in a couple minutes and the cop would not let me do it where it was, the matchbox connections needed to be tighter, once I got home I fixed the issue, still works fine to this day over a decade later.

 

My suggestion was for moving an empty engine hoist across rough ground with a hand truck, what about putting the engine on one of them garden carts/wagons with four pneumatic 10" tires, two of them tires hold a very heavy SD25 diesel engine for me in my second photo 22 hours ago, plus you will find other uses for one of them carts, just sit the engine on the 4 pneumatic wheel 4 carts, strap it in position and someone pushes while the other pulls/steers.

 

 

The problems arise because I am a country boy living on a city lot and I refuse to throw valuable sh...vintage stuff away. I see it as future planning. Went to the steel yard today and new square steel tube in the size I wanted was over $10 a foot. Found a piece of off cut steel tube that I can make work for $20 and smiled remembering the pile of steel tube in my garage and the pile of steel sheet leaning against the back that people and the city, have tried to get me to scrap. 
Long story short the truck and the engine can get close to their destination, but not all the way. Engine requires lifting out of the bed of the truck and moving 2 to 3 yards to reach an engine stand on hard ground.
I have other sh.. important artifacts that would also benefit from a device to move them to different hiding spots on the lot. So, modification of the engine hoist has been on the board for sometime. The final mod, which may or may not happen this project. Is to mount a hitch on the engine hoist or make side mounts on the hoist to attach to my lawn tractor.  The lawn tractor has stopped running and until I can get it reliable, attachments for have dropped from priority. 

[frankendat]

6 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Six of one, half dozen of the other.  I think steering from the back where you stand would be easier when pushing or pulling a load.

I take your point and thought of judo as a good analogy, you sweep the leg without the weight. 

[frankendat]

I am not comfortable with the amount spent on this hoist. I like to feel good about doing much for little, but the cost of having steel machined bit me in the ass. It was near double what I anticipated and I foolishly commissioned the work without concreting the price. Rookie mistake and it stung. 

 

Today I scored the casters I wanted for the price I wanted. They are 8in swivel casters for scaffolds rated for 1000lbs each with solid rubber tires. The rear pneumatic tractor tires are rated at 800lbs each, wheel confidence is high. To maintain a level ride height. I have 2x2 .188 wall steel tube to bolt and weld (belt and suspenders) to the top of the lower extending arms of the hoist. 18in off 2x2 will be mounted 9 inches on the lower extending arm and 9 in off the front.

 

Here is where I need assistance from the Great Ratsun Brain Trust

Best method for 1-1/4 hole in .188 in wall square steel tube? Welder? Torch? Bite the bullet and buy a 1-1/4 bit for my 1/2 drill? More information than needed is included below:

The top of the caster is a solid round metal protrusion which slips into a scaffolding tube. The solid round metal piece is 1-1/4 inches in diameter. To accomplish my plan a 1-1/4 hole will need to be made through my newly acquired 2x2 square steel tube and a small piece of 1-1/4 I.D. round tube will need to be welded around the hole. By doing this the square steel tube will not interfere with either the rotation of the caster or operation of the brake. The pin on the solid round metal piece is big enough to go through the 2x2 tube.  (See my next post for further information)

Edited Friday at 03:16 AM by frankendat

[frankendat]

 

The picture is a quick sketch of the base of the engine hoist. It is drawn to scale.

 

[frankendat]

I made the mistake? or the clever move? To run the engine hoist past A.I. Again, it made some mistakes I corrected, but I like some of the ideas, because the ideas make sense to me, but I have proved A.I. makes mistakes and I know I make mistakes so.....

Well according to A.I. My design will hold IF the alloy shaft of the caster wheel is installed with a spacer (as planned) welded to bottom of the 2x2 , the alloy shaft penetrates both the bottom and the top of the 2x2 and rather than the pin, a grade 8 bolt with fender washers is run through the alloy shaft, securing it in the 2x2. 
If I plan on using it often or for large engines, welding 1/8 or 1/4 plate on the sides of the 2x2 was recommended and the A.I. specified welding must be accomplished with a wire feed MIG not a stick welder. (I mentioned the 1 inch steel plate was stick welded when the A.I. expressed concern regarding welding 1 inch thick material a week or so back. 

I didn't get any clever ideas from either the Ratsun Brain Trust or A.I. on getting precise big holes in steel other than drilling, so I am going to buy some bits. I thinking of trying the $30 dollar cobalt or HSS step drillbits at Harbor Freight. With the idea they are only intended to last this job. 

[iceman510]

I used a carbide bit like this to cut holes in spring steel brackets for my 510 bumper.  Used lots of lubricant.

 

This is the type I used.  I don't recall exactly which "brand" I bought.  There are lots of these weird Chinese names for the suppliers.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Carbide-Stainless-Plastic-Drilling/dp/B0FPLZ5FVG/ref=sxin_17_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?adgrpid=189510986587&content-id=amzn1.sym.157815aa-47d5-4a63-b37d-108738de1fd0%3Aamzn1.sym.157815aa-47d5-4a63-b37d-108738de1fd0&cv_ct_cx=1%2B1%2F2%2Bcarbide%2Bdrill%2Bbit&hvadid=779600292439&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=1019293&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=13197191257487280917--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13197191257487280917&hvtargid=kwd-1391247779946&hydadcr=28597_14788419_2323118&keywords=1%2B1%2F2%2Bcarbide%2Bdrill%2Bbit&mcid=38d7a9f1150b35cdbc9ff412ea81f4b8&pd_rd_i=B0FPLZ5FVG&pd_rd_r=d17bb9ce-409c-4400-a649-0bc34b746630&pd_rd_w=36pmd&pd_rd_wg=hRhkE&pf_rd_p=157815aa-47d5-4a63-b37d-108738de1fd0&pf_rd_r=0PEB901RZ1ZAKQTR0VSM&qid=1772852312&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sr=1-1-6024b2a3-78e4-4fed-8fed-e1613be3bcce-spons&aref=DsZwuiQbhA&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1