1980 720 sleeper

[Lonewolf1220]

Hello all, new to the community. Just got a 1980 720 single cab 2wd. I got it for the purpose of making it a sleeper. So few questions such as what big engines can I put in it? (Not worried about having to do fab work) Next is what can I do to beef up the front suspension? I already have a 1 ton dually axel I'm going to but under the rear and getting some 1 ton leaf springs. But the front suspension I'm not sure what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[datzenmike]

I would stick to any powerful 4 cylinder or V6 because at least they fit and plenty to choose from without trying to stuff a 350 in there, which doesn't. Not much you can do with the front suspension but the later '83 and up and next gen D21 Hardbody spindles can be worked to fit the earlier trucks. Thiss gives you much larger calipers and vented rotors.  

[Lonewolf1220]

I appreciate saying 4 cylinder or v6 but I'm not looking to go small. I want to do something that is a challenge not something easy. I have seen people do LS swaps in them so I know going bigger than v6 can be done. The point of me wanting to do this build is to make something that looks slow on the outside but really is pushing 600+ hp minimum. So I'm wanting to know what others have done.

[datzenmike]

So the engine has to actually fit right? Twin 4bbls sticking through the hood or the radiator in the box kind of gives it away.

[wayno]

 

[Thomas Perkins]

Back in the day,they were putting 327's in Vega's.Give it a try...

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

On 12/4/2022 at 5:59 PM, Lonewolf1220 said:

Hello all, new to the community. Just got a 1980 720 single cab 2wd. I got it for the purpose of making it a sleeper. So few questions such as what big engines can I put in it? (Not worried about having to do fab work) Next is what can I do to beef up the front suspension? I already have a 1 ton dually axel I'm going to but under the rear and getting some 1 ton leaf springs. But the front suspension I'm not sure what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I see no issue with going big, but it boils down to skill level and patience. Can you cut and weld body panels? Have you ever leveled a motor out inside an engine bay? How about modifying steering components and/or an oil pan for clearance?

 

Hack used to be cool, but those days are over. The Ratrod thing got out of hand and now everyone thinks that hacking something together is neat, but no. It sucks.

[Lonewolf1220]

51 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I see no issue with going big, but it boils down to skill level and patience. Can you cut and weld body panels? Have you ever leveled a motor out inside an engine bay? How about modifying steering components and/or an oil pan for clearance?

 

Hack used to be cool, but those days are over. The Ratrod thing got out of hand and now everyone thinks that hacking something together is neat, but no. It sucks.

So yes I know how to cut and weld body panels and all that. As for the engine levling I have never done that but I have a friend that has done plenty of them right down to making sure the driveshaft angle is correct to not have unwanted vibrations and other problems.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

19 minutes ago, Lonewolf1220 said:

So yes I know how to cut and weld body panels and all that. As for the engine levling I have never done that but I have a friend that has done plenty of them right down to making sure the driveshaft angle is correct to not have unwanted vibrations and other problems.

Cool. I'm glad you responded.

 

I do engine swaps for a living and I've been in some sticky situations over the years with crazy swaps. The best way to start off an unknown swap is with a mock up. Not an extensive mock up, but just lower the engine into the engine bay and push it around to find the best place for it. Once you decide that it will fit, and you've found a good enough spot for it to live, do a more extensive mock up to check the clearances of things like steering shaft and box, brake master, shifter location, radiator clearance (I'm assuming you'll run electric fans), then have a look at how the exhaust will route. Will it clear the frame rails? How about the steering shaft? Do a good job making sure the heat of the exhaust won't be too much for fuel and brake lines, and your feet. As a basic rule, I like to have 5/8" minimum clearance on everything. Frame to exhaust, water pump to fans/radiator, valve cover to brake master, etc. More is better, but any less and you'll run into heat and actual contact problems.

 

Once you have the engine in the spot where you want it, weld it in place. Yes, weld the brackets so you are sure it won't move during the in-out mock up adjustments. You'll probably have the motor in and out at least half a dozen times during the process. You could make brackets that bolt in place, but tack welding them is less time consuming. To make room during the build process, and after you've decided where to put the motor, unbolt everything from it to give you room to work on the various components.

 

If you can afford it, buy yourself a digital inclinometer. I use the cheap Fowler ones pictured below and they work fine. Just don't drop it. If you drop it, they never seem to work consistently again.

[datzenmike]

1 hour ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

 Hack used to be cool, but those days are over. The Ratrod thing got out of hand and now everyone thinks that hacking something together is neat, but no. It sucks.

 

If you have to cut and modify the body it simply does not fit. The trick is to realize this before starting and not go down that road. Modifying the body is well beyond most people no matter their good intent. Failed swaps are sold as junk because no one wants to fix the damage done. Completed ones are full of "Oh I didn't plan for that" fixes and look amateurish.

[Lonewolf1220]

2 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

 

If you have to cut and modify the body it simply does not fit. The trick is to realize this before starting and not go down that road. Modifying the body is well beyond most people no matter their good intent. Failed swaps are sold as junk because no one wants to fix the damage done. Completed ones are full of "Oh I didn't plan for that" fixes and look amateurish.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way but I greatly appreciate his input because you know what I have the skills to do this and if I don't I have friends that do and I plan on this build taking several years because I am very detail oriented and have already decided I'll be putting in a 383 stroker.

[datzenmike]

I have no idea of your skill level. To me everyone is an expert. Just advising caution for a successful swap.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 

If you have to cut and modify the body it simply does not fit. The trick is to realize this before starting and not go down that road. Modifying the body is well beyond most people no matter their good intent. Failed swaps are sold as junk because no one wants to fix the damage done. Completed ones are full of "Oh I didn't plan for that" fixes and look amateurish.

Yes, I totally agree. However,  great things come from a little encouragement and guidance. If I can help these guys with some of what I have learned, then they are more likely to create something cool.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lonewolf1220 said:

Well I'm sorry you feel that way but I greatly appreciate his input because you know what I have the skills to do this and if I don't I have friends that do and I plan on this build taking several years because I am very detail oriented and have already decided I'll be putting in a 383 stroker.

Building from Mike's comments, details are everything. So is anticipation. Anticipate where you may run into trouble and sort that problem out first. Mock ups help a ton and make sure to mock up everything and anything you can think of. Special parts knowledge is important too.

 

Case and point - I am in the final stages of building an LS swapped resto-mod Jeepster Commando for a client now, thank God. The middle of the job was rough. There was a point after I already built the motor mounts where literally every solution revealed a new problem. One area was the brake master setup. We couldn't run a vacuum booster because it would have hit the valve cover, so I ordered up a hydro-boost system with an aluminum Corvette master. Well, that hit the alternator. But I couldn't push the booster any closer to the firewall because the pushrod to the pedal was already as short as it could be. Luckily, and after hours of searching the web and talking to a tech at Wilwwod, I found a short dual circuit master cylinder that fit, with about an inch to spare before it hit the alternator. I had problems with the steering shaft at the motor mount which required more outside the box invention. Then the transfer case shifter wanted to poke up under the passenger seat, so I made my own twin-stick setup that doglegged over about four inches to the middle. Then the clutch slave hit the Hooker manifolds that I bought to help clear the steering shaft, which required fabbing up a pull type slave cylinder mounted on the trans. Then that hit the floor... It seemed like it was never going to end. Forcing myself through was the only way. I'll attach some pics so you can see the fruits of my labors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Sorry, I like showing my work 😁

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[NC85ST]

Nice work! I wish I had a quarter of your skill.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

7 hours ago, NC85ST said:

Nice work! I wish I had a quarter of your skill.

Thanks.

 

Sorry for the thread jack. My intention was to show that any obstacle can be overcome, with a welder.

[datzenmike]

A blue tipped or a wire feed wrench

[bottomwatcher]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:30 PM, NC85ST said:

Nice work! I wish I had a quarter of your skill.

Yes nice work Stoffren! Your swaps are first class! Your bill would shock the Ratsuns but that is what it takes for work like yours. Ever do engine swaps in boats? I do those (not professionaly) and instead of welding it is glass work, anyways the amount of work for engine swaps is insane. To the original OP why go to all that work for ancient iron? Gotta swap in something worthwhile. UZ toyota v8 or something simular.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I've built engines for boats, but never swapped a boat engine. Seems like it would entail the same amount of work.

 

The SBC he's considering is not a bad bang for the buck. He has it already, and they aren't as horrible as people think. They can be built to run smooth as glass, comparable to a modern V8.

 

The only Toyota V8 I would ever consider is the 5.7L, and they are massive.

 

Wait, I would absolutely consider a Toyota Nascar motor. They are out there, if you know where to look.

[Stinky]

A SBC will fit.  They fit in a 620 and LUV. 

 

There is a guy in town that has one (720 w/a SBC).  He has a bed cover, the tailgate is louvered and the radiator is there.  I have never seen under the hood or bed-cover.  BTW, this is what the FBI would call a clue... that the engine and radiator won't both fit under the hood.

 

There is a guy in town that has an Isuzu Pup?   (not sure, but it is an Isuzu).  He cut 6", or so, outa the bed, and grafted it behind the front wheel well and moved the cab back.    I don't think that he has any fender liners.   He has a 401 "Nail-head" Buick in it.  Those motors don't put out a lot of power, if my memory is correct....like 250 HP.  He had the motor and once you get to 200HP, in something like this, it is, a technical term here, a shit-load of power.

 

A 302 is smaller than a SBC.....

 

I once had a 72 LUV w/a 2.6 Capri motor.  I had several people look at my PU and say, I wish that I woulda done this...(one guy had a big Ford in his ???, you are talking about 40 years ago and the memory ain't so good.  This motor evolved in to the 2.8, then 2.9 and was found in Rangers.  Rangers had a bigger V-6 in them.  I have no idea what sort of computer stuff they have on them.   Another good design....except for the fiber cam gear.

 

I had a stock '76 Monza w/a 265 in it....that was a sleeper.  I don't remember how long it took to change the plugs on it, but one plug took 2 hours.  I think the whole job was like 4 hours.  An Astro van is about the same.

 

Chevy made a 2.8.  But, both of these are basically hopped up 4 cylinders, performance wise (same as the Ford 2.9 V-6).

 

Back in the day, a 231 Buick was a common swap, in mini-PUs,  as that is a small/compact motor....You can find these in 80-86 Buicks, or so (don't quote me, rough guide there, but there was one in my '86 station-wagon (actually, a 4.1)).  They will put out 200 HP, and easily fit.  You can put a 700R4 behind it....an overdrive GM trans.  

 

Ford made a V-6, about the same size,  as the 3.8 Buck, it was found in LTDs.  

 

Do you have smog checks?  Your new motor must be newer than your old one, '80 and have all of the smog accessories on it to pass smog.

 

If you put a computer controlled motor in....you just added $2K bucks to the cost.  You need a special ECM wiring and computer, or do it yourself (have you ever done dat, a major hair-puller).  You also need a fuel injection (higher pressure) compatible gas tank in.

 

A 4.3 Chevy....to wide (although the same size, less 2 cylinders as a SBC) is an option.  They came in Q-jet HEI versions (hook up the gas and give it 12V and away you go).

 

If it were me, I'd look for an 80s non-computer controlled V6.  This would be WAY EASIER (go back and re-read Datsun Mike's concerns).  Although, the same type of motor out of an Explorer, S-10, Expedition, Durango, etc. would also work.  A computer controlled motor in the 4.0 range will have 200-250HP.

 

Big brings a whole bunch of issues.  ECMs bring a bunch of issues....and cost.

 

So, if I were you, I'd put in a newer V6, w/the ECM, OR  find a 3.8 Buick and put a GM OD trans behind it (700r4, and a BOP trans, the number escapes me).  All it needs is 12V to the HEI, a rubber gas-line to the pump and wire up the alternator.  These came in Olds, Buicks, Pontiacs and Chevys (there were some Chevy V-6s out there build off the 305, same width as a SBC).  These motor evolved in to the 3.8 that was in FWD cars, up until, at least 2000 (A good design, 60s -00's, at least 40 years of service).  All the OD trans will need is the TV cable set correctly and it will run....or you can run a Powerglide, TH200 or TH350 or TH400 behind it.  Yes I know, if you were me, you'd jump off a bridge.

 

To me, there are no other viable choices....unless you consider the 3.0 Nissan V-6 w/a big 2bbl and a HEI, or a Nissan VQ V-6.

 

BTW, if you put 4.10 gears in your PU, it would jump off the line.  Then, in OD (.7 of a downshift).....your Overall Ratio comes to 2.87.    (4.1 x .7, 10% of 4.1= .41...... .41x3= 1.23 (the amount of reduction in .70.  4.10-1.23=2.87).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Essex_V6_engine_(Canadian)

Edited December 24, 2022 by Stinky

[yenpit]

On 12/7/2022 at 11:56 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Sorry, I like showing my work 😁

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please leave CA & come work for us.  That is all..............😉

 

Are those cast iron Hooker exhaust manifolds??  Nice! 😎  We stuffed a Coyote in a Panoz few years ago.........talk about fabrication!!  The crate engine came with stock exhaust manifolds, that were oriented badly for us................didn't clear the left side steering shaft & didn't clear the right side frame rail.  I was looking at it, cuz my boss was frustrated.  I noticed the ports were ambidextrous/evenly spaced, so I switched the manifolds side to side & they looked like they would line up!  The mounting flange was NOT ambidextrous, so we cut them off & swapped the flanges to the correct side.  While we were at it, we lengthened one side of the primary tubes, to gain a little more room for something else!  I'm NOT a fabricator, but I love brainstorming ideas of how to make something work!  Fun stuff!

[EDM620]

A couple years ago I saw a SHO Taurus V8 turned N/S sporting a manual gearbox stuffed into a Deuce with some room to spare. I have a pic somewhere... and no I don't recall what gearbox was used. Some food for thought as well as all the other ideas posted above as damn near anything can be done these days.

 

I like seeing the unusual swaps and creativity (not hacking) done well is IMO a job well done. I'm following to see what route you end up going with.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

15 hours ago, EDM620 said:

A couple years ago I saw a SHO Taurus V8 turned N/S sporting a manual gearbox stuffed into a Deuce with some room to spare. I have a pic somewhere... and no I don't recall what gearbox was used. Some food for thought as well as all the other ideas posted above as damn near anything can be done these days.

 

I like seeing the unusual swaps and creativity (not hacking) done well is IMO a job well done. I'm following to see what route you end up going with.

Ive seen that same car. I thought it used a Mazda based transmission.

 

I just scoured the web and couldn't find the car, but I remember seeing it at, I think, the Oakland roadster show.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

20 hours ago, yenpit said:

 

Please leave CA & come work for us.  That is all..............😉

 

Are those cast iron Hooker exhaust manifolds??  Nice! 😎  We stuffed a Coyote in a Panoz few years ago.........talk about fabrication!!  The crate engine came with stock exhaust manifolds, that were oriented badly for us................didn't clear the left side steering shaft & didn't clear the right side frame rail.  I was looking at it, cuz my boss was frustrated.  I noticed the ports were ambidextrous/evenly spaced, so I switched the manifolds side to side & they looked like they would line up!  The mounting flange was NOT ambidextrous, so we cut them off & swapped the flanges to the correct side.  While we were at it, we lengthened one side of the primary tubes, to gain a little more room for something else!  I'm NOT a fabricator, but I love brainstorming ideas of how to make something work!  Fun stuff!

Thank you. Unfortunately, I am unemployable. I've been self employed for too long.

 

Panoz? Wow. That must have been a fun project.

[bilzbobaggins]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:00 PM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I've built engines for boats, but never swapped a boat engine. Seems like it would entail the same amount of work.

 

The SBC he's considering is not a bad bang for the buck. He has it already, and they aren't as horrible as people think. They can be built to run smooth as glass, comparable to a modern V8.

 

The only Toyota V8 I would ever consider is the 5.7L, and they are massive.

 

Wait, I would absolutely consider a Toyota Nascar motor. They are out there, if you know where to look.

 

The 5.7 toyota  motor is huge.  Out of curiosity, why dont you care for the 4.7 toyota v8?  My old man keeps whining he wants one in a corolla.