divinehoodlum

[divinehoodlum]

Hey guys! I’m new to the world of 510s. I picked up a 1972 510 sedan mexico spec a little over a week ago. I love the car but I hate the solid axle. Any ideas of how to go about doing an irs conversion? Don’t necessarily want to keep it datsun branded, just want to be able to put coilovers on the rear.

[datzenmike]

Too much work for little gain. You want lower? have the leaf springs de-arched and add an extra one to firm them up. If you hate the ride it's likely, hell almost certain, that the shocks are worn out, and the fronts also. 

 

Always wondered what rear axle was used. Surely not the H-190 like in the wagon. Maybe the H-165?? Also the engine is a J15?

[paradime]

It all comes down to the time, effort, and money spent putting an IRS in a solid axle car. You'd do better to just buy a US spec 510 if you want coil-overs. That said, if your wanting to make a statement with your skill and talent, you could build a tub rear chassis IRS around a multi-link setup and blow some minds.

 

The Mexican spec 510 is kind of a hoj poj of leftover cheeper parts for that market. I crawled all over a '73 Mexi-dime at a car show and the side markers and dash were from a '68, the badging and grill were stamped chromed metal and not stainless. IMO that's what made it cool. The Unibody and rear chassis drivetrain/suspension are significantly different from the US spec PL510, so you'd be starting from scratch. It's not a bolt on by any stretch, but here's a guy on Ratsun who put a '67 Datsun 411 wagon on a Miata chassis. The dude's build thread is biblical. 

 

 

The first thing I'd focus on is swopping that J15, because with that engine there's no need for coil-overs.

Edited November 25, 2022 by paradime

[datzenmike]

You don't need coil overs. I lowered my 710 front end for less than $50, $25 Canadian actually, and it's adjustable. All you need is an angle grinder, though a hacksaw will work and a few wrenches. No welding. Why spend several hundred to over a thousand on something you adjust only once to get your ride height where you want it.... and then... it's just along for the ride. I've had my 710 lowered for 12 years and never once adjusted it, I mean who would need to??? The rear was just some drop blocks, probably $50 if you buy them, (I got for $10 at Canby) but you can make them for a lot less. I had a pair of leaf springs laying around so I swapped an extra leaf into my pack to firm up the ride.

 

All the above, front and back lowering would have been less than $100.

 

"CooL!!!!! You lowered your 510!!! for $60!!!!!!!!! ?"

 

 

 

[divinehoodlum]

7 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Too much work for little gain. You want lower? have the leaf springs de-arched and add an extra one to firm them up. If you hate the ride it's likely, hell almost certain, that the shocks are worn out, and the fronts also. 

 

Always wondered what rear axle was used. Surely not the H-190 like in the wagon. Maybe the H-165?? Also the engine is a J15?

It does have the j15 in it but I do have 2 L16 engines that I might throw in. My ultimate goal is to 13b swap it because I understand rotaries better than piston engines.

[divinehoodlum]

2 hours ago, paradime said:

It all comes down to the time, effort, and money spent putting an IRS in a solid axle car. You'd do better to just buy a US spec 510 if you want coil-overs. That said, if your wanting to make a statement with your skill and talent, you could build a tub rear chassis IRS around a multi-link setup and blow some minds.

 

The Mexican spec 510 is kind of a hoj poj of leftover cheeper parts for that market. I crawled all over a '73 Mexi-dime at a car show and the side markers and dash were from a '68, the badging and grill were stamped chromed metal and not stainless. IMO that's what made it cool. The Unibody and rear chassis drivetrain/suspension are significantly different from the US spec PL510, so you'd be starting from scratch. It's not a bolt on by any stretch, but here's a guy on Ratsun who put a '67 Datsun 411 wagon on a Miata chassis. The dude's build thread is biblical. 

 

 

The first thing I'd focus on is swopping that J15, because with that engine there's no need for coil-overs.

I would like to get a usdm 510 but the interior on this one is pristine and the only 510 in my general area. I also don’t have the funds to just go out and buy a whole other 510 just for suspension bits. I also want to be able to bring this car back to life and make it nice. I hate to see these classics die

[datzenmike]

8 minutes ago, divinehoodlum said:

It does have the j15 in it but I do have 2 L16 engines that I might throw in. My ultimate goal is to 13b swap it because I understand rotaries better than piston engines.

 

The J series engine brackets are farther forward. L series engines won't just drop in place.

 

Rotaries are better????? Define 'better'. They are an evolutionary engineering dead end. They are like a 2 stroke compare to a 4 stroke. Make lots more power and interesting exhaust sound, (like a 2 stroke) but need to rev to the moon and burn oil. They don't last long between rebuilds. I really like 4 or 6 rotor engines.

[carterb]

3 hours ago, paradime said:

The Mexican spec 510 is kind of a hoj poj of leftover cheeper parts for that market. I crawled all over a '73 Mexi-dime at a car show and the side markers and dash were from a '68, the badging and grill were stamped chromed metal and not stainless. IMO that's what made it cool. The Unibody and rear chassis drivetrain/suspension are significantly different from the US spec PL510, so you'd be starting from scratch. It's not a bolt on by any stretch,

 

 

 

Finally got to see one last summer.

 

The entire floor looks closer to a 510 wagon than a 510 sedan.

 

 

 

No ready-made provisions for swapping in an IRS. 

 

The dash in this car was a '70+ "pod" dash

 

 

And the grill looked like a standard '71 bluebird grill.

 

 

It appeared to be stainless to me, not chromed steel.

 

The tail lights are like the '71 bluebird tail lights but there was no chrome/stainless accent right around the lenses.  That could just mean they were reproductions though.  I haven't found confirmation as to what was actually stock from the factory.

 

 

Trim-wise - the Mexican cars were closer to Bluebirds than they were 510s. 

 

Even the front and rear window gasket trim sits on top - instead of within - like the Japanese cars.

 

 

 

[paradime]

Yeah the US spec '68 510s were closer to JDM Bluebirds as well. The Mexican one I saw had the sweep speedo dash and the grill had the vertical center piece with a D on it. Cheep stamped steel and not stainless on the one I looked over. I could see rust blisters in the chrome. It had the same bumper guards though. The steering wheel in the photo looks like a '68 but the dash is definitely later. Like I said, they were a hoj poj mix of leftovers from the factory. What adds another extra unique coolness factor is they had no rain gutters, just a bump out of metal around the doors.  Gives them a clean and simple look.

Edited November 26, 2022 by paradime

[paradime]

9 hours ago, divinehoodlum said:

I would like to get a usdm 510 but the interior on this one is pristine and the only 510 in my general area. I also don’t have the funds to just go out and buy a whole other 510 just for suspension bits. I also want to be able to bring this car back to life and make it nice. I hate to see these classics die

With you 100% there. If you want to go with an L16, not sure but I think you'll need the US spec X-member and other front suspension parts to get the full monty 510. Modding the engine mounts and using Mike's advice might be the cheapest way to get it on the road until you have the scratch to do it up right. Your car sounds awesome, but as we say on Ratsun, without pict it didn't happen, so start posting them up. Size them to 8X10 72 dpi jpeg and drag them to the box below the text field. Easy peasy Japanesy.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

20 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

The J series engine brackets are farther forward. L series engines won't just drop in place.

 

Rotaries are better????? Define 'better'. They are an evolutionary engineering dead end. They are like a 2 stroke compare to a 4 stroke. Make lots more power and interesting exhaust sound, (like a 2 stroke) but need to rev to the moon and burn oil. They don't last long between rebuilds. I really like 4 or 6 rotor engines.

Rotaries are "better" for making big power. They have a way more linear torque curve and don't fall off at the top, like an engine with a cam does. Rotaries were always our nemesis back in the racing days.

 

Some even had a hard time deciding the displacement of a rotary engine, and the thought was that the displacement could be higher than actually listed because of the three separate chambers of the engine. The SCCA rule books were always in question regarding what class to put rotary powered race cars in.

 

Better? No, but way more power potential. If you can make them last, that is.

[datzenmike]

 

Wagons had the external tank with indent for the spare. The emergency brake set up is also the same as the 510 but on the right side and is also used on he the 610/710 wagon. Interesting that only the left wheel has the E brake. Differential is a Salisbury type reminiscent of the C-200 in the 720 but that was for 4x4 and 15 years later. I can't find any Nissan that used them before the 720.

 

Only two leaf springs? The 510 has at least 4

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I would totally keep the solid rear axle. Way easier to make performance adjustments to a leaf suspension. And then you don't have the trailing throttle oversteer, the camber and toe changes of the IFS can also make a 510 scary to drive. Yes, these issues have all been addressed by the aftermarket, but I think the solid axle allows for many opportunities.

 

It would be easy enough to build a three link system using coilovers for that rear too. Sen it to me and I'll make it happen 😁

 

As a matter of fact, I considered a solid axle conversion on one of my old 510s.

[datzenmike]

Agree. IRS is comfortable and stock, up to a point it handles pretty good but when pushed you have to put stiffer springs in and shocks and basically almost immobilize the suspension travel to the point you may as well have had a solid axle anyway.

[paradime]

I would agree with everything you guys said, BUT I have to add a caveat. For serious wide open canyon carving, or on a high speed GT oriented track, firming up the rear suspension travel to the point of discomfort is a must whether it's IRS or solid axle.

 

For autocross and street bombing though, you can get away with more compliant spring and shock dampening with a stock-ish rear sway bar. Some of the autocross guys in Washington ran stiff springs and damping with no sway bar at all because at lower speeds, trail through can be used as an advantage. The slight rear steer allows you to accelerate out of tight corners much earlier if you're ginger on the throttle and keep the tires planted. 

 

The only car that gives the 510 serious trouble in vintage B sedan now is the Mazda RX3 which has a straight axle and rotary engine. As mentioned before, back in the day Mazda got little to no support from SCCA in sanctioning thier pissed off bumble bee rotaries, because they were such an unknown quantity back then. No doubt the RX3 produces more power, but can't hang with the 510 cornering. A perfect example is Troy Ermish's SVRA/Vara B-Sedan race at Willowsprings against an RX3. On the straits the Mazda walks right passed the legendary Rebello L18, but Troy consistently reels him back in on the twisties. Seriously fun race to watch with these two dicing it out and swopping the lead like 5 or 6 times.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by paradime

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Apples to apples, the 510 has camber, and the geometry of the semi trailing arm suspension has built in roll center advantages. In those race cars, they are required to use stock suspension pickup points, but with a custom designed three link (and panhard or watts link), a solid axle could have those beneficial attributes as well. The last part of that puzzle is the camber. It is possible to camber a solid axle, but it gets expensive. Our new to us Huffaker built MG Midget uses full floating axles with drive plates at the end of the axle which allows for a couple degrees of camber. The camber is built into the housing by heating the top of the axle housing and quenching it.

 

I do realize we've gotten pretty far off topic, considering what the OP wants. To keep it relevant, I would add that swapping over to IRS in that car would be challenging even for someone with great fabrication skills. If the OP doesn't have the patience, skills or tools, it could turn out horribly for the car.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[yenpit]

Is your car yellow or white?  I know of one of each in the Denver area, wondering if you bought one of them? 

 

PM sent!

 

TJ

Arvada

[Jesse C.]

Mexican Market, or most of South America, mostly build either the 4 door sedan or the wagon, and pretty much used the same chassis to do so. Wagons are a bit rare with the Sedan being the most common. 

 

I would just leave this setup alone, or trade it for Non Mexico spec Datsun. But if you really want to do the swap, talk to the wagon guys, as some of them have done this conversion. 

 

And yes, those tail lights are legit. They are affectionally known as the Mexican Waffle Tail Lights, due to the square in the center. They where also used in other markets with a garnish, and those are pretty hard to find.