Blueprint oil pump

[frankendat]

Blueprinting an oil pump is not necessary. Using the 280sx oil pump in a Z24 is already plenty of upgrade. BUT, right now I have access to very precise tools and an oil pump. The rest of the pieces of my project are far away.

I have vague recollection of a website that outlined the steps to blueprint a Z oil pump, but have been unable to locate it. There is a different website that lays out the process in general for oil pumps that has provided information. Blue print oil pump

One item of this endeavor, which causes grief even before machine work: according to the website, to achieve increased performance and efficiency, "tightening clearances" is mentioned, along with "smoothing contact surfaces"

I am concerned that both of the process recommended require "removing" material, even buffing with rouge will remove a small amount. Removing material will increase clearance between parts and increasing clearance seems to me the opposite of tightening clearance.

To restate: I am investigating this because it is a possibility given present circumstances. Unless I am misunderstanding the information, it would seem that applying a layer of baked on ceramic heat dissipating or friction reducing coating, thereby adding material that can then be worn into a tighter tolerance, is a better option. There are companies that provide oil pump blueprinting and sell blueprinted oil pumps, but none, that I could find, offering ceramic coating oil pump internals. I am missing something.

[datzenmike]

 

 

Oil pumps have no problem producing 50-60 pounds of pressure. When it does, the relief valve recirculates the unused oil right back to the inlet and the pressure remains stable. So if you 'blueprint' your oil pump and it moves more oil where does it go???? well it doesn't get used by the engine as it's getting more than it needs anyway, it gets recirculated with all the other oil that isn't needed.

 

That is a total over kill. If anything, radius all the bends in the timing cover entry and exit to the pump with a dremel. There are some tight bends and casting flash and burrs that can be removed. Will it make a difference? unlikely but you'll feel better knowing you did it. 

 

 

This is a Z24 timing cover and this hole is  I think the pressure exit from the pump up into the block gallery to the oil filter. There was a huge casting burr right there that I ground away. Big deal.

[frankendat]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 

 

Oil pumps have no problem producing 50-60 pounds of pressure. When it does, the relief valve recirculates the unused oil right back to the inlet and the pressure remains stable. So if you 'blueprint' your oil pump and it moves more oil where does it go???? well it doesn't get used by the engine as it's getting more than it needs anyway, it gets recirculated with all the other oil that isn't needed.

 

That is a total over kill. If anything, radius all the bends in the timing cover entry and exit to the pump with a dremel. There are some tight bends and casting flash and burrs that can be removed. Will it make a difference? unlikely but you'll feel better knowing you did it. 

 

 

This is a Z24 timing cover and this hole is  I think the pressure exit from the pump up into the block gallery to the oil filter. There was a huge casting burr right there that I ground away. Big deal.

My misguided thinking is/was a constant flow of fresh oil bathed over internals, provides cooling and lubrication, faster bathing, achieved with more flow/pressure, means cooler and fresher oil, which is positive. Understanding, many, many datsuns have operated many many miles with the oil "bathing" from stock pumps and this "upgrade" isn't necessary, but it shouldn't hurt. Do you know the answer to the clearance questions?

[datzenmike]

The pressure is regulated by an internal spring in the pump. More oil available won't go to the engine it just gets recirculated is my point. This is the same with the hi volume KA pump. It doesn't lubricate better than the stock pump, as 55 PSI is the same as 55 PSI no matter which pump you use BUT at lower RPMs where maximum pressure is not reached the KA pump moves more oil so the pressure is higher than the stock pump at the same RPMs. On my tired well worn L20B the stock hot idle oil pressure was 17 PSI. With absolutely no other change but a KA pump the hot oil pressure jumped to 29 PSI. 29 PSI is going to push a lot more oil through the bearings than 17

[frankendat]

The oil pump works and ignoring time honored advice, I'm fucking with it. Hopefully, prudence was gained by the advice  provided on Ratsun.

I applied a thin coat of Cerakote Microslick, to the oilpump "drum" inside and out, the inside "chamber" where the drum/cylinder is housed and the rotor. After drying, I assembled the front half of the pump, put it in a vice, put a standard screwdriver  shaft into the drill, stuck it in the snout of the oil pump and began working the compound into the aluminum.

What is the rpm of the oil pump in relation to the rpm of the motor? At high cordless drill speed, vibration is present. I will continue burnishing the pump, but wonder if perfect balance at high speed is a benefit to pursue.

(I understand the internals of the pump are usually bathed in oil, but Microslick adverts, claim operation even without oil)
 

[datzenmike]

If you think about it, the oil pump turns same speed a the distributor or 1/2 the crankshaft RPMs.

[frankendat]

6 hours ago, datzenmike said:

If you think about it, the oil pump turns same speed a the distributor or 1/2 the crankshaft RPMs.

I might have thought too much about it; I have the 8 plug distributor, will this change the answer? (The answer to distributor rpm, there are plenty of threads debating timing of dual spark plug firing.)

[datzenmike]

All 4 stroke distributors turn 1/2 the crankshaft speed.

 

The Z series distributors with dual plug heads fire together at exactly the same time PERIOD. Any discussion about the exhaust side firing on the exhaust stroke to 'burn any emissions' is foolish besides being wrong. All you have to do is look inside the distributor cap. The rotor points to pairs of plug wires as in Intake 1 and exhaust 1. How can it fire the number one exhaust after turning 180 degrees?????????

 

 

Ignition timing is designed to allow some time for the fuel and air to burn (it's not instantaneous) and reach it's maximum pressure at the most efficient time to push and transfer energy into motion of the piston. This is approximately 17 degrees ATDC. Too soon and the pressure is wasted pushing down on a crankshaft/rod and piston that is stacked vertical or close to. Too late and the piston has/is rapidly accelerated down the bore and the gasses are wasted chasing it and filling the empty space. A Z20 with single plug heads is timed around 10-12 degrees BTDC

 

Burning candle.

If you light both ends of a candle it will burn twice as fast as only one end. As dual plugs light the mixture in two places it burns faster, so you can light it later to hit that 17 degree sweet spot. The Z24 timing is 5 degrees +- 2 degrees.

 

Having said all this, the Z24 distributor does have a provision to turn the exhaust side plugs off to reduce engine noise under heavy load. A low intake vacuum switch does this. When switched, the ignition module automatically advances the timing for single plug use to maintain power.

[Tedman]

Seems to me the only reason to blueprint an oil pump is to make it more efficient, which means it will run smoother, consume less horsepower, and probably last longer.  I agree that burnishing or polishing the gerotor "gears" will only increase the clearance and make it a less efficient pump unless there's some way to restore the clearance. Without adding material or some provision for physically moving the meshing surfaces closer together, you would need to start with a tight set.  If you had several pumps or gerotor sets to choose from, you could cherry pick the sets or components on the tight side to start with.  With smoother surfaces in the gerotor, you should be able to run a tighter clearance which should improve efficiency. Also, there's probably room for improvement in the fit of the shafts in the body. Your experiment with the Cerakote treatment sounds interesting. I'm not sure I'd want to run a Cerakote'd oil pump on my engine, but a twisted part of my brain can't wait to hear what happens to yours if you do try it!   

[frankendat]

On 9/16/2021 at 12:17 AM, Tedman said:

Seems to me the only reason to blueprint an oil pump is to make it more efficient, which means it will run smoother, consume less horsepower, and probably last longer.  I agree that burnishing or polishing the gerotor "gears" will only increase the clearance and make it a less efficient pump unless there's some way to restore the clearance. Without adding material or some provision for physically moving the meshing surfaces closer together, you would need to start with a tight set.  If you had several pumps or gerotor sets to choose from, you could cherry pick the sets or components on the tight side to start with.  With smoother surfaces in the gerotor, you should be able to run a tighter clearance which should improve efficiency. Also, there's probably room for improvement in the fit of the shafts in the body. Your experiment with the Cerakote treatment sounds interesting. I'm not sure I'd want to run a Cerakote'd oil pump on my engine, but a twisted part of my brain can't wait to hear what happens to yours if you do try it!   

Hey Tedman, I ended up only Cerakoteing the internals. I am out of the heat transfer coating, for the exterior, and ordering more, at this time and for this product, offended the delicacies of taste and passion.(Or maybe I'm cheap). I coated the interior surfaces of a hydraulic pump some years ago and last I checked it was still good to go. By checked, I mean, it has remained operational and there hasn't been a bunch of Cerakote flakes in the filters. I had the pump bench tested, before and after and saw an increase in pressure. I would have to dig up the reports of the  bench testing business, to recall how much. If I find or create a steady use for it, then I might be talked into paying for another test to see if the benefits remained or were quickly worn away.

[Stinky]

I have a Z24 w/175K on it.  IT takes forever (3-5 secs?) to switch the light off.

 

If I was to change pumps, which one would be duh one to use? 

[datzenmike]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:10 AM, datzenmike said:

The pressure is regulated by an internal spring in the pump. More oil available won't go to the engine it just gets recirculated is my point. This is the same with the hi volume KA pump. It doesn't lubricate better than the stock pump, as 55 PSI is the same as 55 PSI no matter which pump you use BUT at lower RPMs where maximum pressure is not reached the KA pump moves more oil so the pressure is higher than the stock pump at the same RPMs. On my tired well worn L20B the stock hot idle oil pressure was 17 PSI. With absolutely no other change but a KA pump the hot oil pressure jumped to 29 PSI. 29 PSI is going to push a lot more oil through the bearings than 17

 

Get the oil pump from a D21 Hardbody with a KA engine in it. It moves more oil so the pressure rises faster and is higher than the stock pump at below 2,000 RPMs..

 

Remember the wear on main and rod bearings allows more oil to bleed past them. More wear equals lower idle oil pressure.

Sender could be bad. Should shut off light above about 8 PSI

If higher than 10w30 weight it may be slower building pressure

Does your oil filter have an anti drain back feature?

Does oil filter need replacing?

[frankendat]

3 hours ago, Stinky said:

I have a Z24 w/175K on it.  IT takes forever (3-5 secs?) to switch the light off.

 

If I was to change pumps, which one would be duh one to use? 

Everything Datzenmike said and search for other threads on this subject where DatzenMike provided pictures of the differences in oil pumps to insure you get the right one. The information  provided was very beneficial to me.

 

But first, have you performed a slow and precise oil check (dipstick) to determine you're not just a quart or two low?

[Stinky]

Not sure if the filter has an anti-drain back.  I doubt the light is bad as the timing chain stops clattering when the light goes out.

 

Oil level is fine.  

 

It does it on a fresh oil change...w/5 qts in it..

[datzenmike]

The light works, I was thinking maybe the sender is a little slow. Sluggish to go out could be nothing at all.