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Known spring? (found in 510 oil pan)


skyy

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Not getting any picture.... and would like to see your 510 too!

 

 

TarbtnT.jpg

 

Most likely someone removed the cam sprocket in the past without knowing how to properly block the timing chain tensioner from falling out.  If the coils are just under 0.5" and very stiff that's probably what it is. 

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  • datzenmike changed the title to Known spring? (found in 510 oil pan)

Thats the one! 🙂 thank you💪

🤔 is it a hydraulic tensioner and that spring is "just" as a support when the engine is off? 

..could the chain actually jump or does the old school spocket design prevent it? 

Yeah I need to find a working solution for the picture thing. 

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I worked out the sq. in. of the tensioner plunger once, and at 60 PSI oil pressure it amounted to barely 7 PSI of push on the shoe. The spring is far stronger than that. It does have a small oil feed hole but (I think) it is mostly for lubrication of the shoe and chain than actually tensioning the chain.

 

The tensioner spring keeps the chain taught at all times.

 

I have never seen an L series chain jump a tooth. There's just not enough slack even without the tensioner in place. If out a tooth I would say the previous owner put it in wrongly.

 

 

To check cam timing set accurately to TDC compression stroke on the #1 cylinder using the timing 0 notch on the pulley and the ignition timing pointer on the front of the engine. If you take off the valve cover you should see the front exhaust cam lobe at about 2 and the intake cam lobe at about 10 o'clock. This only tells you you are on or near the correct compression stroke. You want all the slack on the passenger side where the tensioner is and to get this the engine must be turned clockwise, up to, and stop on the TDC mark. It's very easy to overshoot so you could try taking the spark plug out so there's no compression. If you overshoot back up 1/4 turn and try again. Once set accurately on TDC take a look through the cam sprocket hole and you should see this...

 

otMggUE.jpg

 

There is a small V or U on the back of the cam sprocket and just above it on the cam thrust plate is a small horizontal line. The V should be under the line or just slightly to the right of it as in this picture. This is an L16/18 and they are usually set omn the #1 hole. L20Bs are set at the factoiory on the #2 hole.

 

This cam is perfectly timed. If you are over past the line to the right of it you can remove the sprocket and set on the #2 hole and this will move the V to the left to correct.

 

Do NOT.... take the cam sprocket off!! without learning how to block the tensioner from falling out. If it falls out, add a Saturday morning or more of work to pull the timing cover off to fix.

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That's the spring I found. 

Although the engine sounds ok,  there was obviously someone working on it with no clue. 

I think I should take the timing cover off and see how everything looks. 

Also the car doesn't pull like close to a hundert hp. Maybe the timing is off... 

Gonna check out the manual how this is done - hopefully doable without taking the head off...

img_20210811_105435~2.jpg?raw=1

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screenshot_20210814_115325_com.instagram

screenshot_20210814_115334_com.instagram

Thats the car how I bought it almost two yrs ago in California. The idea was to bring it to New Zealand and turn into a hotrod. Then a lot of things happened, I didn't relocate,  and so I brought it to Switzerland...

Being such a strict country when it comes to automotive law, there won't be a hot wagon. But only some minor tweaks ..

I already went from automatic to 4 speed manual. 

Bummer a L20 is almost impossible to source here in Europe.. 

But I could get another L16 and turn it into 1800? Is it just a different  bore or stroke too? 

img_20210814_110646.jpg?raw=1

Current look that grill and NObumper change everything 😎

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4 hours ago, skyy said:

Also the car doesn't pull like close to a hundert hp. Maybe the timing is off... 

Gonna check out the manual how this is done - hopefully doable without taking the head off...

 

 

This is an L20B? That's more like 96 hp. I wouldn't pull the cover off. I would check the cam timing though. If head gasket or timing chain changed it may have been put together wrong. Nothing kills performance like the cam being off.

 

The usual.

Check/set the valve lash, hot if possible.

Inspect the plugs. Are the all the same? Must be NGK BPRE6

Inspect the plug wires. If they look old, they are, replace. Same for cap and rotor... these two are wear items.

Do a compression check and record for later. Higher than 150 would be nice.

Check/set the timing 12 BTDC on the L20B. Less than this is just wasting power.

Is the secondary on the carburetor free to open? Look down the primary with the throttle to the floor. Is it adjusted so the throttle plate is fully vertical and not part open?

 

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18 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

This is an L20B? That's more like 96 hp. I wouldn't pull the cover off. I would check the cam timing though. If head gasket or timing chain changed it may have been put together wrong. Nothing kills performance like the cam being off.

 

The usual.

Check/set the valve lash, hot if possible.

Inspect the plugs. Are the all the same? Must be NGK BPRE6

Inspect the plug wires. If they look old, they are, replace. Same for cap and rotor... these two are wear items.

Do a compression check and record for later. Higher than 150 would be nice.

Check/set the timing 12 BTDC on the L20B. Less than this is just wasting power.

Is the secondary on the carburetor free to open? Look down the primary with the throttle to the floor. Is it adjusted so the throttle plate is fully vertical and not part open?

 

 

 

Nono,  it's a L16!  I meant getting a L20 would have been cool. But as they are nearly inexistent in Europe, turning a L16 (which I'm able to get here)  into an 1800

 

Having found that spring in the oilpan, maybe the mechanic replaced it but was too lazy to search for the missing one. But if otherwise;  could it be that the engine is running without it!? 

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Got ya.

 

To make an L18 you would need to bore the L16 from 83mm to 85mm and put L18 pistons/rods and crankshaft in the L16 block. On a good day an L16 makes about 70 hp and an L18 about 10 more.

 

 Only way the tensioner will pop out is if the head gasket failed and when the head was removed it wasn't secured properly. Because the spring is bent it means that the engine was started. I don't think anyone wouldn't notice the noise and take it all apart and fix it.

 

TPKjY2V.jpg

 

 

V4gFyD8.jpg

 

Ignore the blue plastic tensioner blocking tool. If you take the valve cover off and look down the straight (tension side) length of chain you should be able to see the crank shaft sprocket teeth. If the tensioner shoe was out, the chain slack would block your view, just like the top picture.

 

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if it wasnt fixed the chain slap would be so loud..like shit my engine is about to come apart loud.

I personally love the L16, there are many things you can do to hop it up that arent visible without a disassembly. head swap to a head with larger valves if you still have the 210 cast head. then a port job and port match the intake, get some SU's (ztherapy is good for this). recurve your distributor, lighten your flywheel for quicker throttle response etc etc..go find you a copy of how to hotrod and race your 510 by bob waar.

 

stunning car by the way!!

Edited by jbirds510
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1 hour ago, jbirds510 said:

if it wasnt fixed the chain slap would be so loud..like shit my engine is about to come apart loud.

I personally love the L16, there are many things you can do to hop it up that arent visible without a disassembly. head swap to a head with larger valves if you still have the 210 cast head. then a port job and port match the intake, get some SU's (ztherapy is good for this). recurve your distributor, lighten your flywheel for quicker throttle response etc etc..go find you a copy of how to hotrod and race your 510 by bob waar.

 

stunning car by the way!!

I got some SU's but they need other jets for an L16 I guess,  right? 

..maybe not so much with aother cam? 

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Thanks for all the inputs! 

Took the timing cover off today and everything looks good to me. All the marks are lining up at TDC and there are 42 pins between them.  The only "difference" is that the cam spocket is set to position "2" instead of factory setting 1, but this may have been tuned by the guy who lost the spring 😂. The tensioner looks fine too. img_20210816_125030~3.jpg?raw=1img_20210816_154528~2.jpg?raw=1img_20210816_154548~2.jpg?raw=1

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26 minutes ago, skyy said:

I got some SU's but they need other jets for an L16 I guess,  right? 

..maybe not so much with aother cam? 

reach out to Z therapy, they are very kind and will tell you how to check the wear areas that effect performance..Also they will make suggestions to what needles and springs to run to match your set up based on what you are looking for. IE; low end torque mid or WOT. As far as cam goes, there are many options from performance aftermarket to simply swapping to an L20 cam (Identifiable by protruding cast lugs in the center) to regrinding factory cam profiles, however this option can often if not always make more engine bay "noise" as a result. get the book my guy, it'll really help you appreciate what you already have..In my opinion a woken l16/18 is better than an L20b.. If you want your mind blown look up troy ermish racing and listen to what he does to these motors and what they produce power wise. my .02 BTW TY for your service! from one vet to another (fmf HM2)

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Best to rebuild the 210 head, ported and gasket matched with larger valves and hardened seats. All other 'letter heads' have larger combustion chambers even the 219/V912 closed chamber will drop the L16's compression from 8.58 down to 8.21. Horror of horrors if an open chamber head is used, this will drop it to 7.72.

 

The L16SSS maintains a compression of 9.3 because it uses flattop pistons.

 

The L20B cam is close to the L16/18 SSS cam with 0.413" lift.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, skyy said:

Thanks for all the inputs! 

Took the timing cover off today and everything looks good to me. All the marks are lining up at TDC and there are 42 pins between them.  The only "difference" is that the cam spocket is set to position "2" instead of factory setting 1, but this may have been tuned by the guy who lost the spring 😂.  . img_20210816_125030~3.jpg?raw=1

 

The number is really irrelevant as the V notch to etched line relation is the deciding factor. V should be below or slightly to the right of the line above it when accurately set to TDC. The L16 is set on the number 1 hole at the factory, but the V will slowly drift to the left with wear. Once is has, you can shift to the #2 hole to remove about 4 degrees of cam advance. Another reason for the V to be on the left is if the head has been milled down and the cam is closer to the crank adding chain slack.  The above cam looks to be perfectly timed.

 

L20B cams are set on the #2 hole at the factory, but again, the V to line relation is what counts. 

 

Up to a point, a cam that has advanced itself from wear or head shaving will favor higher RPM cylinder filling but at the loss of low and mid range power and torque. For the street, low and mid range power/torque is far and away more preferable.

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what Mike said assuming your gas is good. We have garbage gas and high summer temps and battle detonation. I have an A87 peanut head on my l16 and even ported intake and ported/polished exhaust ports on hotter days I still get a little run on and had to re-curve my distributor to reduce/eliminate ping..for me im ok with my 8.2:1 cr Vs higher combustion temps, burned valves and melted pistons.  lower CR can be compensated for by adjusting the header pipe 2=1 length post flange, exhaust pipe diameter (1.75''-2'' to still allow a small amount of back pressure) and with cam profile so I wouldnt go as far as to say nightmare at all . Gas formulas these days are made for computer controlled cars that are in a constant state of compensation.  To be totally frank if you want to get performance on a budget swapping is the only real way as it takes money and time and often at the loss of reliability to get the same levels of output from your L whether a 16, 18 or 20b that say a 12 or 16 valve KA has from the factory.

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Compensated for? Lets just say that the exhaust can be optimized, but even if you had 9 to 1 you would optimize the exhaust anyway.

 

I've driven my L20B through 2 provinces BC and Alberta and 4 states (Wa, Or, Id, Mt) and from sea level to mountains (Kicking Horse pass 5,330 ft on Canadian gasoline) and out on the prairies around Calgary and back home to the coast on holiday and noticed no difference. 'Course this was at cruise speeds. Gasoline was consistent while driving, performance? who knows. I know wayno complains about gas separating if left sitting for a few months. Have never seen/heard or come across this up here. My weed eater mix sits for years and every spring it fires up on 3-4 pulls.  

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20 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Best to rebuild the 210 head, ported and gasket matched with larger valves and hardened seats. All other 'letter heads' have larger combustion chambers even the 219/V912 closed chamber will drop the L16's compression from 8.58 down to 8.21. Horror of horrors if an open chamber head is used, this will drop it to 7.72.

The head is says "210" on the front face (but no idea what shape the chambers have). So a good base from your experience? What I've noticed is that the inlet ports a significantly smaller in diameter then the ones on the SU's inlet maifold... (the SU's unit is apparently from a 1800)

Can you recommend a "known working" complete electronic distributor? ebay lists some but I'm unsure if they fit..

 

for example:

A1 CARDONE 31-620 Remanufactured Electronic Distributor (12 Month Warranty)

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None of the heads that came over on Datsun cars and trucks were closed chamber. The closed chamber heads floating around were low mileage imports in the late '70 and '80s as they became available and were cheaper than rebuilding the stock head. In N Am were were very conscious of lower compressions and emissions so these heads would never have passed. But yes there is a closed chamber 210 head but is basically a unicorn.

 

If rebuilding it anyway, the 1.3" exhaust and 1.5" exhaust valves can be replaced with 1.38" and 1.65 from a U67 head. Not sure if these will fit side by side in the 83mm bore so you may be limited to just the larger intake. Be sure to get the hardened steel valve seats used after leaded gas was banned.

 

The L16SSS and the L18SSS used the same head and so the dual SU intakes had the same 1.5" port to match the 1.5" ports in the head. The 210 head has a 1.25" intake port. So yes, major miss match. What you can do is put the intake gasket on the head and scratch an outline of the ports. Use a dremel with a burr and open the intake port up to match and blend inwards about an inch. Does not have to be smooth. Then put the gasket on the intake and do the same thing. Called gasket matching. There's be no ledge or knee to disrupt the air flow.

 

 

Any L series four cylinder EI distributor will fit and work. This one https://www.ebay.com/itm/144030059205?fits=Model%3A510|Make%3ADatsun&epid=75013613&hash=item2188dc4ac5:g:QVcAAOSwckdeaYXZ is a remote igniter and needs the electronic box (not included) for it to work. You can substitute a General Motors HEI unit.

 

The EI matchbox is the preferred high output electronic ignition (EI) If ordering one they are only available on '79 and '80 L20B engines in...

'79 S10 200sx

'79 A10 HL510 ('79 and '80 in Canada)

'79 620 truck

'80 720 truck

 

The '80 A10 and the S110 200sx (with Z20 engines) outside California used only 4 plugs and have a matchbox distributor also.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/18/2021 at 2:31 AM, datzenmike said:

None of the heads that came over on Datsun cars and trucks were closed chamber. The closed chamber heads floating around were low mileage imports in the late '70 and '80s as they became available and were cheaper than rebuilding the stock head. In N Am were were very conscious of lower compressions and emissions so these heads would never have passed. But yes there is a closed chamber 210 head but is basically a unicorn.

 

If rebuilding it anyway, the 1.3" exhaust and 1.5" exhaust valves can be replaced with 1.38" and 1.65 from a U67 head. Not sure if these will fit side by side in the 83mm bore so you may be limited to just the larger intake. Be sure to get the hardened steel valve seats used after leaded gas was banned.

 

The L16SSS and the L18SSS used the same head and so the dual SU intakes had the same 1.5" port to match the 1.5" ports in the head. The 210 head has a 1.25" intake port. So yes, major miss match. What you can do is put the intake gasket on the head and scratch an outline of the ports. Use a dremel with a burr and open the intake port up to match and blend inwards about an inch. Does not have to be smooth. Then put the gasket on the intake and do the same thing. Called gasket matching. There's be no ledge or knee to disrupt the air flow.

 

 

Any L series four cylinder EI distributor will fit and work. This one https://www.ebay.com/itm/144030059205?fits=Model%3A510|Make%3ADatsun&epid=75013613&hash=item2188dc4ac5:g:QVcAAOSwckdeaYXZ is a remote igniter and needs the electronic box (not included) for it to work. You can substitute a General Motors HEI unit.

 

The EI matchbox is the preferred high output electronic ignition (EI) If ordering one they are only available on '79 and '80 L20B engines in...

'79 S10 200sx

'79 A10 HL510 ('79 and '80 in Canada)

'79 620 truck

'80 720 truck

 

The '80 A10 and the S110 200sx (with Z20 engines) outside California used only 4 plugs and have a matchbox distributor also.

 

 

 

 

 

💪

I see 🙂

I'm gonna check out the spares stock of another Datsun guy today...

Apparently he's some heads.. 

 

Regarding the ignition,  I might consider 123ignition.de they offer different options up to fully programmable, map switch,  immobilizer, and via Bluetooth 

 

hope to find a steering column too today as then I'd upgrade it with a electric powersteering from DCElectronics. Used this in a Hako before and it works perfectly velocity dependent..

 

thanks for all the help🚀😎🙌

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4 hours ago, skyy said:

💪

I see 🙂

I'm gonna check out the spares stock of another Datsun guy today...

Apparently he's some heads.. 

 

Regarding the ignition,  I might consider 123ignition.de they offer different options up to fully programmable, map switch,  immobilizer, and via Bluetooth 

 

hope to find a steering column too today as then I'd upgrade it with a electric powersteering from DCElectronics. Used this in a Hako before and it works perfectly velocity dependent..

 

thanks for all the help🚀😎🙌

I have been running the 123 ignition for 4 years now.... 

I have the bluetooth one for the immobilizer feature.... it also gives you a nice display on your phone...

 

It's an extremely well built unit... tolerance on the machine work is perfect....

 

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OK,

I got a fresh built L16 short block with forged Kameari internals (rods & flat top pistons) and full ARP, Kameari timing set with idler gear, upgraded pump, Kameari ignition, all pulleys, headgasket, Flywheel & clutch, Alternator & Starter. Additionally a peanut head with new cam followers. But the Head needs an overhaul yet (valves & seats too). A new set of 40mm side draft Mikunis but have to source the matching manifold. Got also a 4in1 header which looks bit crappy but apparantly what you get today. All parts new. And a used 4speed box to make it a whole.

This was not cheap but hey rationality got relative these days ^^

 

Gonna post pics once I got it home

 

cheers!

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