Car Bogging, need advice with tuning and timing the engine.

[Nate.a.v]

Hi everyone! Pretty new to tuning/timing the engine and I'm looking for some advice on my car, I have a datsun 510 wagon with a l20b and a weber 32/36. Recently we've been trying to get my car running somewhat reliably and the other day we tried taking the car out for a drive and as I was getting off the clutch in 1st gear and started giving it gas the car started bogging and almost felt like the car wasn't getting any power or gas? Not 100% sure. So we brought the car back in and suspected it was the timing or carb. We checked the timing with a timing gun and at idle the range it changed was from 18ish to 25ish when the distributor was fully rotated advanced and retarded. I was thinking it was a bit too high but unfortunately I'm unsure of how to lower the timing since the lowest it would go was 18 when it was fully retarded. Pretty stumped on what to do next, if anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated. I want to try to fix it myself before I just hire someone to fix it. Thanks!

[datzenmike]

Idle has to be 800 or lower or mechanical and vacuum advance will creep in and add to the one you are trying to read or set.

 

Stock ignition timing at idle is 12 degrees before TDC.

 

 

 

Has it ever run properly? Or is this a new car to you?

or

It run well and suddenly started acting up.

[Nate.a.v]

We swapped in the engine last year, PO said it ran fine. Drove it for the first time a few months back and it ran/drove great, the only thing that was bugging us was that it dieseled after we turned the engine off. So we tried adjusting the timing and carb and it stopped dieseling but now the car wont drive properly. In hindsight we should of just left it as is, but it is what it is.

[datzenmike]

Weber. Probably does not have an idle cut solenoid, that would fix the run on. Have you checked to see if it has the idle cut. It might be there but not working requiring the idle to be turned up. This would not help the run on either.

 

Do you have a tach to see what the idle speed is??? Does your timing light have a tach function?

[Nate.a.v]

We unfortunately do not have a tach in the car but we have a dwell/tach meter. Im pretty sure the weber 32/36 does not have a idle cut solenoid.

[banzai510(hainz)]

was this car ever running right?

did you work on this and change soemthing.

 

to me if you retard the distributor and only got 18dbtc the dist oil pump spindal is off or your dstributor mount is the wrong one.

a timed distributor should go from 0-25 pretty ez if correct

 

there is a 8mm bolt undert the dist and maybe you can loosen it to get the timing lower . I will assume since its so advance right now then when driving it advances more causing it to cut out

Edited August 4, 2021 by banzai510(hainz)

[Nate.a.v]

It was running enough to be able to drive it up and down the street without any noticeable issues. We started messing with the timing/screws on the weber because the engine would diesel after being shut off, that's when the problems started.

 

Today we put in a new matchbox distributor. We set the engine to TDC verified by the timing marks. It pointed to the 1st spark plug wire but wasn't dead on it. Looked through some of the older forum posts and saw that for an L20b that position of the tang is suppose to be like the one in the picture Datzenmike posted. As you can see mine is way off and this is at the 0 degree mark on the timing marks. Anyone know what to do from here? Put the new distributor in and tried firing it up but it would just backfiring threw the carb, couldn't confirm 100% where the first plug was. Any help would be much appreciated, sorry if I made a noob move somewhere, still trying to learn! Thanks!

 

My picture of the dizzy mount

 

Datzenmikes pic

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

That could work as there are 4 plug leads on the cap and 90 degrees apart. Instead of the rotor at the bottom 6 o'clock it could be at 9 o'clock and move the plug wires around on the cap to match. We all try to keep at the 11:28 position so it's easier to discuss.

 

The spindle has 20 teeth so there are 18 degree increments.

 

Again if the idle is too high the distributor will add mechanical advance so turn down as low as you can. Better pull the vacuum advance hose off as well. See if that brings the reading down to near normal. 

[banzai510(hainz)]

Most open head Datsun will deisel with a weber carb. the stock carb has a idel cut off not to suck in gas when car key is put to OFF

[Nate.a.v]

Hi guys, I'm back sorry for such a long pause. So we recently put in a matchbox dizzy with a msd blaster 2 coil to replace the points dizzy and stock coil. The 510 got transported over to my work for some help from my coworkers and they've been helping tinker with it. Car starts for a few seconds but doesn't hold, and often backfires through the carb when cranking. Sounds like it wants to start but its just not there. My coworkers suggested maybe the chain jumped a tooth or two? Would this possibly cause all the issues i've been running into? And if so how would I check if it jumped a tooth? If it did jump a tooth and we went to fix it would the whole timing cover need to be pulled or is there a way to cheat it and fix it from a different spot? Thanks for all the help guys!!

[datzenmike]

Take the air filter off and look to see if the choke is closed when starting. Backfire through carburetor is almost always from a lean mixture and what the choke prevents when cold starting.

 

Check firing order. It's 1342 counter clockwise. If you had the plug wires off.

 

Never seen or heard of an L series jumping a tooth. The chain has a tensioner to hold any slack. Even without it the chain guide is there, I don't think it's possible.

[banzai510(hainz)]

7 hours ago, Nate.a.v said:

My coworkers suggested maybe the chain jumped a tooth

Fire the coworkers they clueless

[banzai510(hainz)]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:08 PM, Nate.a.v said:

We swapped in the engine last year, PO said it ran fine. Drove it for the first time a few months back and it ran/drove great, the only thing that was bugging us was that it dieseled after we turned the engine off. So we tried adjusting the timing and carb and it stopped dieseling but now the car wont drive properly. In hindsight we should of just left it as is, but it is what it is.

this is the first clue!!!!!!!!if ran fine how would it jump a tooth but you fucked with it.

 

 

car starts? so it starts and key goes to ON and it runs fir a little bit

You check the timing with a light. or better yet set the crank to TDC and check the rotor poistion and see if your dist cap #1 is on a plug wire?  1 3 4 2 ccw fire order?

 

How you wire the coil and matchbox up? write this out or take a photo.

 

 

sell me car before your friends screw it up

 

you ask the questions heres the awnsers

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t-s&ei=UTF-8&p=vimeo+datsun+hainz#id=1&vid=c2bc940e3b3389a9689e968fcaa2fb12&action=click

Edited August 20, 2021 by banzai510(hainz)

[Nate.a.v]

1 hour ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

this is the first clue!!!!!!!!if ran fine how would it jump a tooth but you fucked with it.

 

 

car starts? so it starts and key goes to ON and it runs fir a little bit

You check the timing with a light. or better yet set the crank to TDC and check the rotor poistion and see if your dist cap #1 is on a plug wire?  1 3 4 2 ccw fire order?

 

How you wire the coil and matchbox up? write this out or take a photo.

 

 

sell me car before your friends screw it up

 

you ask the questions heres the awnsers

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t-s&ei=UTF-8&p=vimeo+datsun+hainz#id=1&vid=c2bc940e3b3389a9689e968fcaa2fb12&action=click

Car barely starts and runs for maybe 2-3  seconds and doesn't idle properly. When it did run we checked timing with a light as a said previously in this thread, it would only advance/retard from 25-18 when we loosened the bolt and turned the distributor clockwise and counterclockwise. Checked TDC multiple times and found what was supposedly the 1st plug, the rotor wouldn't directly point at the plug, but it was closer than the others. Tried this combo with the correct firing order and it would get spark but it would only crank and backfire through the carb while cranking. Did multiple other variations of the 1 number plug wire, found the one thats giving the car the abiltiy to start for a few seconds. 

 

Wired the distributor according to ggzilla's thread on installation of matchbox distributor. 

 

From the matchbox one wire went to the negative on the coil and another went to the left side of the ballast. Jumped the ballast by connecting a wire from both terminals on the ballast since its a "high energy coil".

 

If i remember correctly choke opens up when cranking, its electric and connected to one of the fuses.

 

I can double check firing order today and make sure its correct, ill check out the video after i get off school. Still pretty new to working on engines and such so im still trying to understand jumping a tooth, etc. Thanks guys!

[banzai510(hainz)]

12 minutes ago, Nate.a.v said:

1st plug, the rotor wouldn't directly point at the plug

well it should  if you adjust the timing on the dist turing adv or retard ou should be able to get it right on. This is the first clue!

 

watch this then

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=Awr46ufz2B9hIkYAgS37w8QF;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDOTY3ODEzMDcEX3IDMgRhY3RuA2NsawRjc3JjcHZpZANHM2ZpTERFd0xqS2JxTHFKWUZJa1dBQzNNVE13TGdBQUFBQTBKazE4BGZyA3lmcC10BGZyMgNzYS1ncARncHJpZANQdmpVMkRTdFJBMkxtSEQuZmFHUmdBBG5fcnNsdAM2MARuX3N1Z2cDMQRvcmlnaW4DdmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMyNARxdWVyeQN5b3V0dWJlJTIwaGFpbnolMjBkYXRzdW4EdF9zdG1wAzE2Mjk0NzcxMTY-?p=youtube+hainz+datsun&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&fr=yfp-t#id=2&vid=9b761d82f92fdac241db44cb58c15dba&action=view

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by banzai510(hainz)

[banzai510(hainz)]

also I think on a 72 there should be a 12volt wire for the elelctric choke anyways. I know on 521 the 72 had a 12volt wire so I dont know why one would need a 12volt wire from fusebox when its already in the harness.

 

take photo of the carb maybe you have a  weber with a idle cut off also

[datzenmike]

Find TDC. There is a timing scale on the timing cover.  L20B is 12 degrees before top dead center BTDC. Never going to run with the timing fucked up. God knows how you get 18 degrees. Reading wrong???

 

Choke should close as soon as you step on the throttle on a cold engine. L20Bs all has an electric choke carburetor.

[rosso]

Here's a wiring diagram of the electric choke on '72 US 510. Just so you can see what the original wiring colors were. Diagram also shows the jumpers for an internally regulated alternator that you can ignore.

 

[AlexDeLarge]

Do what Mike said to do in his last post but before you do make sure you have your plug wires hooked up correctly. Sounds to me like firing order is incorrect. Double check.

[Nate.a.v]

Hi guys! Rechecked TDC/ Firing order and everything was correct. Car was still being a pain to start and idle, was able to run but would need to constantly give it gas for it to poorly run. Then my coworker had a great idea and realized the car was closer to starting when more advanced. So he completely took out the bolt that connects the plate to the pedestal and advanced it farther then it would allow if the bolt was still on (check pic below) and the thing fired right up. We messed with the idle speed screw and mixture screw and had it running like butter and starting on a dime. But why would it need to be so advanced? Is it possible for the gearing on the distributor to be off a tooth? That is what my coworkers suggested. If so what is the procedure to readjusting it? Thanks!

 

Pic as mentioned above:

 

Video of Car running:

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Nate.a.v

[datzenmike]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:28 PM, datzenmike said:

Find TDC. There is a timing scale on the timing cover.  L20B is 12 degrees before top dead center BTDC. Never going to run with the timing fucked up. God knows how you get 18 degrees. Reading wrong???

 

Choke should close as soon as you step on the throttle on a cold engine. L20Bs all has an electric choke carburetor.

 

It's not advanced. You're reading it wrong or something. Get a different timing light. Set to 12 degrees BTDC. This is for L20B.

 

 

[Nate.a.v]

13 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

 

It's not advanced. You're reading it wrong or something. Get a different timing light. Set to 12 degrees BTDC. This is for L20B.

 

 

Mike not sure about how it would not be advanced, i could be wrong but turning the distributor clockwise would advance it correct? As seen in my most recent post i needed to turn the distributor clockwise for the car to start. Didn't use a timing light at all when starting the car today but just by knowledge turning the distributor clockwise advances it. We set TDC found 1st plug and correct firing order, car would not start properly, so we turned the distributor while still in the pedestal clockwise, needed to turn it even more so we removed the bolt and went past what the plate would allow as seen in my most recent post for the car to start and idle. Would it still not be advanced? I could be totally wrong but I'm not sure what else i would be doing. Just trying to understand. Thanks!

[datzenmike]

Clockwise is advance but without a timing light it can only be set by ear.

 

It's possible the the oil pump was removed and the drive spindle was out and put back in a tooth out. In that case the distributor would be moved from it's original position and will run better when advanced bu removing that bolt.

 

 

Find TDC on the compression stroke of the #1 cylinder.

 

Remove the two bolts holding the distributor spindle to the timing chain cover and lift the distributor away. Don't worry, the distributor is such that it can't be put back in wrong. Here's what you should see if you look down inside...

 

 

If the spindle that drives the oil pump and the distributor is in properly the tang will be at 11:28. The distributor should be within adjustment range to set the timing.

 

See what you have. It can be adjusted so that you distributor does not have to be 'off the scale'.

[Nate.a.v]

Ah I see, here's the tang at TDC. Its way off compared to the tang shown in your picture.

 

[datzenmike]

Timing is timing as long as you have adjustment room on the distributor it doesn't really matter how you get it. I think I had to clock mine from the 11:28 to get the vacuum advance can away from the upper rad hose, but generally everyone sets to 11:28. Yours looks close to 90 degrees around so probably the plug wires on the cap are all moved one position.

 

There are four 12mm bolts 2 long 2 short holding the oil pump on. Have a rag handy as it will drip when removed. Usually the spindle just falls out with it. Reposition to 11:28 with the help of someone watching from above.

 

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/08/2c/f9//small/0900c15280082cf9.jpgTry putting the spindle in the oil pump and lining these marks up, it will get you close when the pump is put back in. Usually the pump gasket will survive being removed and can be reused.

 

Once it s at 11:28 the distributor can be put back in but the rotor will point to a different plug wire on the cap above it. This becomes the 'new' #1 so put the #1 plug wire on it and move the others around 1, 3, 4, 2 in a counter clockwise direction. Your timing should now be within the distributor's adjustment range.