620 stock exhaust y-pipe

[Cardinal Grammeter]

I had guessed $100.  That is very reasonable for precision welding and fabbing when you consider people are paying $150/hr for oil changes and routine semi-skilled maintenance even not at dealers.    And then a job consists of tasks that are worth $200/hr and also $35/hr so it averages out.  

 

There is a lawn mower repair shop in he next town when call them, you get a long recorded message that their rate is $100/hr and they are backed up 1 month.  If you want expedited quick turnaround service it is $200/hr.  That sounds high, but if they have a commercial hydro unit torn all the way down, it takes a special talent to deal with contraptions.

 

I've got two recommendations from two guys who are highly connected and in the business so they know everyone.   One shop is out in the sticks and they supposedly only work in stainless.  I'm going to see them first.  Of course I don't care if the job looks like dog shit.  If the welds are good and it doesn't leak and they don't brake studs or butcher my exhaust manifold, I'll be a satisfied customer.   NOTE:  I also noted that you referred to your customers as clients which means you build a relationship with them which is nice.   

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

My earlier point was that custom stainless exhausts using mandrel bends are time consuming to make. My standard LS3, 2-into-1 stainless exhaust comes out to about $3500, including materials. There's about $400 in tubing, clamps, hangers and a muffler, so the remainder is 30 hours, give or take, in labor. I don't even use the best stainless. Sure, I use 304, but the best mandrel bends are precision bent so that the cross section in the middle of the bend is perfectly round. The less expensive bends are still good quality stainless, but the cross section is not perfectly round in the bend, so when you cut and weld them together, you've got some fiddling to do to have good welds.

 

They became "clients" a few years ago, when I started to specialize in top tier resto-mods. Not everyone can afford that kind of work and those that can deserve to be treated in a commensurate manner.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

I'm guessing $5000 to a guy who bot one of these is nothing more than pocket change (or someone getting a multi million dollar home built)  Here is a $95,600 Sonny's 940 cu in,1700HP STREET engine:  (Someone told me that "Sonny" died, RIP)

 

Can't imagine what sort of headers and exhaust would be matched to this Beast.

 

 

Must day dreaming on what it might have been like before automobiles.  How much would the king spend on his carriage?  I'm thinking lots of gold

[Cardinal Grammeter]

deleted double post

Edited August 13, 2021 by Cardinal Grammeter
double post

[Cardinal Grammeter]

This is one of 2 shops that came highly recommended.  This pic makes me feel at home.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Just found out the "old man" that ran that shop recently died - he was the one that did the good work.

 

The other highly recommended guy really turned me off over the phone. 

 

But this guy didn't and he's local.  He posted this pic of his work which I like (and which is too fine for the job I want done, LOL)  But he definitely has the skill.

 

I was just thinking some of these guys might only weld up mandrel bends and actually not have a pipe bender.  I want a guy that is a pipe bender master!

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Cardinal Grammeter

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Question for Mike:

 

If I would have to take the exhaust manifold off to deal with broken studs, what are the chances that the manifold bolts to the aluminum head would break?  I faced that with a Metro G10 but was lucky that the resulting stubs were still "grabbable."  If I had to take a G10 manifold off, I'd grind the heads off, slide the mani off the "studs" and then use heat to get the studs out.

 

Don't know any other way to do that.  If head is cast iron, there usually is never a problem.

 

Thanks

Tom

[datzenmike]

 I haven broken any bolt heads off only studs. What about one of those new electric impact 'guns'? Set on low and then increasing torque and rattle the bolt loose . 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

So you broke the bolts removing the manifold? Or that was just a hypothetical?

[Cardinal Grammeter]

I did break a G10 manifold bolt.  But I'm sure it was smaller diameter than a L18.

 

Those inductive heaters are cool.  AND the "rattle loose" impact works great with lower heat - definitely non-incandescing.  I have a B&D 18v impact which is sized for screws, that might be just about right - it couldn't come close to breaking a manifold bolt.

 

However I'm going to pay someone to do the job.  Hopefully they are rust masters.  It's probably going to the guy whose cutout weldment I posted above.  I hope he has a pipe bender (!)

[datzenmike]

I'd rather break my own stuff. Someone else might do a crap job with a helicoil or might even JB weld it back on.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

17 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 I haven broken any bolt heads off only studs. What about one of those new electric impact 'guns'? Set on low and then increasing torque and rattle the bolt loose . 

 

I was thinking more about what you said and the "new" makes me wonder if there is some kind of new tool out there I'm not aware off.  I do have a1/4" hex drive 18v Black and Decker impact gun that couldn't break a stud even if you tried.

 

ALSO RE:  Custom Exhaust Shops:  Is it safe to assume they all have and can use pipe benders?  These days I can see some shops only welding up mandrel bends which is a lot cheaper than purchasing an expensive pipe bender.  

 

I know I'm backing off on the car repair hobby but I really want one of these - even if I never use it:  It sure would do a nice job on Datsun exhaust stud nuts, eh? 

 

NOTE:  Did I mention lightning struck damn near my house (no delay in thunder) and blew out my 55" TV, Ceiling Fan Motor, Garage Door Opener, KVM switch, Magic Jack AND tripped a 15 amp breaker on all the ceiling lights in my house - wiring an antenna?  lightning = EMP?)

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Cardinal Grammeter

[datzenmike]

Well the intent isn't to ultimately snap the head off. Vibration, like a few hammer blows, sometimes loosens the grip of rusted threads. Like an impact gun on lug nuts.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:27 AM, datzenmike said:

 I haven broken any bolt heads off only studs. What about one of those new electric impact 'guns'? Set on low and then increasing torque and rattle the bolt loose . 

 

More thinking on what you said.  Under what circumstances did you brake studs?  Were you able to heat to red hot and use paraffin or any other heating techniques?  Or were you dealing with extenuating circumstances? 

 

Back in the 70's I delivered auto parts to all the garages in town.  I saw one of the pro mechanics put a socket on an exhaust manifold stud nut and try to take it off w/o any kind of heat.  He broke the stud right off and then cussed a blue streak - something to the effect that "them damn studs always break off."

 

Then a friend's uncle, a German master aircraft oxy-acetylene welder taught me the ways of the forc... of the torch.

 

Earlier in this  thread I believe I wrote that one shop said, "... if a stud breaks, then..."   WTF?  Like they break all by themselves, eh?  Well, I guess it is NOT safe to assume an exhaust shop knows how to remove rusted stud nuts that have been on for 40 years.

[datzenmike]

Exhaust stud with very rusted on nut. It sheared off at the bottom of the threads leaving a long nub. Once off I heated the head around it, sprayed WD-40 on the stud to cool it and twisted out with vice grips.

[MikeRL411]

9 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Well the intent isn't to ultimately snap the head off. Vibration, like a few hammer blows, sometimes loosens the grip of rusted threads. Like an impact gun on lug nuts.

 

Ah !  The benefit of anti seize compound when putting a steel bolt into an aluminium surface.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:01 PM, datzenmike said:

I'd rather break my own stuff. Someone else might do a crap job with a helicoil or might even JB weld it back on.

That's what you call managing customer expectations. Tell the guy up front what you want and let him do it. Then if it isn't up to snuff, you can refuse payment or make him re-do it. If you aren't up front, all bets are off.

 

Better yet, find a shop you trust.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

18 hours ago, Cardinal Grammeter said:

ALSO RE:  Custom Exhaust Shops:  Is it safe to assume they all have and can use pipe benders?  These days I can see some shops only welding up mandrel bends which is a lot cheaper than purchasing an expensive pipe bender. 

It's not cheaper for the customer. Mandrel bend exhausts take more time than if they were done with a tubing bender. Muffler tubing benders can be bought, used, for $2500, which is pretty cheap.

 

I personally, don't like muffler shop exhaust systems. Yes, that's a blanket statement, but only a couple muffler shops have truly impressed me with their skills. Mostly, they look amateur-ish and the hangers rust and break in a couple years.

[datzenmike]

11 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

That's what you call managing customer expectations. Tell the guy up front what you want and let him do it. Then if it isn't up to snuff, you can refuse payment or make him re-do it. If you aren't up front, all bets are off.

 

Better yet, find a shop you trust.

 

I was thinking something not obvious that fucks up later.  You can't check everything.

[banzai510(hainz)]

just aluminized pipe works fine and cheaper. Mine is over 20yrs olf on my 521 and still looks great

[jbirds510]

if you plan to make your own, something to think about, most harley locations usually have barrels full of stock take off or crunched exhaust, they are 1 3/4" and often will have plenty of bends to use.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

I'm a big fan of heat.  I've taken rusted on nuts that are no longer hex's off with heat and visegrips - on the bench I did it once with pliers just to say that I did it.  That Bolt Buster looks like it was designed for exhaust work.

 

In fact, if a prospective shop doesn't have the equivalent of a Bolt Buster, then they are not using heat to deal with rust.  The ability to heat a nut w/o burning up wiring or setting oil or undercoating on fire is literally a wish come true.

 

LOL, I could spend $400 on a BB and loosen them myself or pay some asshat $400 to pull the manifold and get busted studs out w/o damaging the manifold threads.  Oh wait... they wouldn't know how to do that anyway.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

On 8/14/2021 at 6:37 PM, datzenmike said:

Exhaust stud with very rusted on nut. It sheared off at the bottom of the threads leaving a long nub. Once off I heated the head around it, sprayed WD-40 on the stud to cool it and twisted out with vice grips.

 

OPINION:  Stainless or Steel system?  It's basically 1 pipe - the tailpipe is one bend.

QUESTION:  Is the 74 L18 down/exhaust pipe 1.5" OD like the tailpipe?  (I used a Walker 22266 stainless 1.5 in and out muffler - it appears to be the only 1.5 muffler they sell.)

 

You were lucky where it broke.  If it breaks flush, it's not that hard, drill hole, big heat in hole, will come out.

 

I have a collection of LH drill bits for drilling those holes.  Half the time, the drill bit winds the stud out.

 

Only problem is when someone severely bottoms the stud.  Still have to use the drill hole bit but many heat cycles.

 

Studebaker put brass nuts on steel exhaust studs.  They would gall quickly and still you would break studs.  Heat didn't seem to work that good on them because they would melt.

 

I have 3 shops to "interview."  I may just buy a Bolt Buster.... 

 

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Talked to the local guy today.  We shared all of our "rusted fastener" tricks.  He had one I didn't know of:  don't use easy outs because they keep wedging in expanding the bolt,  Instead, pound a Torx in and it makes a spline that does not keep wedging in. 

 

What impressed me about this guy was that, he too had LH drill bits for use drilling out studs!

 

BUT he wants to weld stainless to the steel flange.  He said there are no issues.  I'm aware of stainless on steel galvanic issues.  Any comments. 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Almost all early British cars used brass nuts on the exhaust. I like them, but they can be hard to source.

 

Stainless can be welded to mild steel. The corrosion you speak of will take decades to be a problem, if at all.