Stupid Smog Emissions Question...

[Soundline]

I’d like to know what year did Datsun start putting smog related, EPA certified emission reduction equipment on the 620, 510, and Z cars.

 

My 1974 620 doesn’t appear to have ever been equipped with EPA stuff.  However the L20b swapped in by the PO has the attachment bracket for smog equipment.  I was told that it’s from a 79’ 620.  

[thisismatt]

At least by 69/70. 70+ L motor 521's had smog pumps, evap controls, etc.

[Ooph!]

 California was generally ahead of the other 49 states but in 74 it would have a PCV valve, a hose from exhaust manifold to air cleaner for heated air on startup, automatic electric choke, fuel evaporation valve, and a dual point distributor that used one set of points for certain RPM and throttle settings.

Smog pumps and a bunch of other stuff came with the L20B in 1978 or 79

Look at the car parts manual page it has diagrams that can assist

https://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/pickup-1972-1979

 

 

[datzenmike]

Usually, or often, trucks were slightly behind car emissions equipment in the same year with the same engines. Usually.

 

PCV valve around '62 so all 510/521/620.

Flow Guide valves to control gas evaporative emissions by '68 in 510 and 521 and all 620 through '74 then to carbon canister.

Hot idle compensator by '71 in the 510 and in all 620s

Dual points by '72 in the 510/521 and '73 620s

ATC by '72 in 510, 521 and all 620

Air injection by '72 in the 521 all 510s and '75 and up 620s

EGR '75 and up 620s

 

You know it's probably easier to just tell you what should be on your '74, but if a '79 engine was swapped in then it must comply with the '79 emissions and over all you are not allowed to mess with them, though to be honest no one checks.. You probably will never need emission testing so why worry?

[Soundline]

Washington State is putting in light sensors that detect emissions.  They intend on submitting the data to the EPA to fine motorists who do not comply with the model year standards for their vehicle.  Currently the fines range from $500 per missing item to $40,000 and civil forfeiture of the vehicle.

 

The way they’re discussing this it would be mandatory to go through these “emissions check points” for all 1960+ model year vehicles.  This should all be in place by 2025.

 

Welcome back to the Paris Climate Accord boys and girls.

[thisismatt]

As much as you may hate emissions control devices, it's a lot more pleasant to be behind catalytic converter equipped vehicles than not... 😆

[datzenmike]

6 minutes ago, Soundline said:

Washington State is putting in light sensors that detect emissions.  They intend on submitting the data to the EPA to fine motorists who do not comply with the model year standards for their vehicle.  Currently the fines range from $500 per missing item to $40,000 and civil forfeiture of the vehicle.

 

The way they’re discussing this it would be mandatory to go through these “emissions check points” for all 1960+ model year vehicles.  This should all be in place by 2025.

 

Welcome back to the Paris Climate Accord boys and girls.

 

'74 are exempt from emissions testing but this does not mean you can rip the emissions equipment out. It's a federal offense to tamper with this equipment... BUT very unlikely the govt. is going to go looking for you, they leave this up to the state you are in to police this law and they got better things to do.

 

A properly working '79 engine should run cleaner than the earlier '74 with it's L18 so stop worrying. In less than 4 years Trump makes his triumphant return and will repeal all these silly new laws. By 2025 just how many drivers will be driving 50 year old vehicles (or even 20 year old that are all EFI and clean running) with modified emission controls on them to make the bother of testing all the cars on the road worth the bother????? It's... bullshit

[Soundline]

3 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

'74 are exempt from emissions testing but this does not mean you can rip the emissions equipment out. It's a federal offense to tamper with this equipment... BUT very unlikely the govt. is going to go looking for you, they leave this up to the state you are in to police this law and they got better things to do.

 

A properly working '79 engine should run cleaner than the earlier '74 with it's L18 so stop worrying. In less than 4 years Trump makes his triumphant return and will repeal all these silly new laws. By 2025 just how many drivers will be driving 50 year old vehicles (or even 20 year old that are all EFI and clean running) with modified emission controls on them to make the bother of testing all the cars on the road worth the bother????? It's... bullshit

These are being ordered to be installed.  They use various light spectrum technologies to assess your carbon emissions as you drive by.  There’s a camera that’ll be hooked to it to run your license plate and the EPA will issue the citation, fine, or criminal summons.  The tech for this was adopted into EPA code in 1998, but hasn’t been readily available for mass road use until the formal trials began in 2016 in Europe.

 

My friend at the Washington State Patrol who’s advising me on what’s coming down the pipeline told me they’re calibrating the machines now for deployment.

 

Its part of the initiative to force us through regulation to transition to electric cars.

 

On the plus side, we should get to skip the current emissions testing.

 

https://www.heatremotesensing.com

[Ooph!]

I had heard about that remote sensing scheme 20 years ago in the SF Bay area I'm glad it hasn't worked out.

[datzenmike]

There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip. Don't count your chickens till they hatch.

 

Right now it's just talk (maybe not even that) If you think about it, it's a stupid idea. First, legally, they would have to give you an opportunity to address a failure and fix it. These ding bat ideas get floated every so many years and nothing ever comes of it. Again all you have to do is pass the emissions for a '74 L18 gross polluter. You should easily be able to do that with a supposed '79 engine.

[Soundline]

Just trying to stay ahead of the curve.

 

If you’d told me 20 years ago we’d be locked down for a year due to a virus that 99% of people survive I’d have laughed it off. 
 

Since we have such an impressive group of leaders presently I haven’t decided how much to believe.

[yenpit]

I have a 1974 620 cast iron exhaust manifold with the air injection rail & the EGR block & pipe intact.  This EGR block bolts to the stock 1974 intake manifold (I likely still have the correct intake manifold too?).  Both will bolt right up to the L20B, although the L16/L18 intake manifold might be a small port, whereas the L20B cylinder heads were big port.  That way is fine, just not perfectly ideal for performance (you would NOT want to put an L20B big port intake on a small port head!).  I might still have the L16/18 air injection pump BRACKET & I might have an air pump......??  PM me if interested in the parts!

 

TJ

Denver CO

[vicdat]

My brand new 1970 521 had a smog pump here in SoCal....it coughed-up blood after 13,000 miles and was considered out of warrant back then. Now most emission related components are warrantied for maybe 100,000, ten years or more...

My next new Datsun was a 79 King Cab whose smog pump was a much better design and lasted damn-near for ever....

[banzai510(hainz)]

I think 72 or late 72 didnt have a smog pump. this might have carried over to the trucks

My 71 had the injected airports for the pump.  or vise versa. I got to look now, but my 521 71 dont have air pump

[Soundline]

Excellent information!

 

1 hour ago, yenpit said:

I have a 1974 620 cast iron exhaust manifold with the air injection rail & the EGR block & pipe intact.  This EGR block bolts to the stock 1974 intake manifold (I likely still have the correct intake manifold too?).  Both will bolt right up to the L20B, although the L16/L18 intake manifold might be a small port, whereas the L20B cylinder heads were big port.  That way is fine, just not perfectly ideal for performance (you would NOT want to put an L20B big port intake on a small port head!).  I might still have the L16/18 air injection pump BRACKET & I might have an air pump......??  PM me if interested in the parts!

 

TJ

Denver CO

Will do, thanks!

 

1 hour ago, vicdat said:

My brand new 1970 521 had a smog pump here in SoCal....it coughed-up blood after 13,000 miles and was considered out of warrant back then. Now most emission related components are warrantied for maybe 100,000, ten years or more...

My next new Datsun was a 79 King Cab whose smog pump was a much better design and lasted damn-near for ever....

The CARB stuff in 1970 was hastily forced on manufactures and insufficient R&D was done due to the time constraints.  Thank God they did it though because it avoided Global Cooling...  remember that was the fear... 

 

1 hour ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

I think 72 or late 72 didnt have a smog pump. this might have carried over to the trucks

My 71 had the injected airports for the pump.  or vise versa. I got to look now, but my 521 71 dont have air pump

I compiled much of the information in this thread and sent it off to my buddy at the Washington State Patrol to see how this will be enforced.  From what I gather, the EPA would need to validate location of original sale for vehicles up to the OBD switch over.  I’ve requested a “reasonable officer standard” review by another friend who quit being a cop to become a prosecutor.  The EPA rules contradict each other, so having an attorney in this state who prosecutes criminal cases is reviewing it is most prudent.

 

We've stopped number of potential enforcement actions like this before by bringing in the right people.  I have formally requested non-OBD cars be exempted within a “reasonable pollution standard” which would need to be defined in a chemical formula of parts per million.  If you’re kicking out clouds of smoke then they could take enforcement action.  I believe the burden of proof to charge someone with a criminal act on this is below the WA State Constitutional Threshold.  So I included a bunch of cases where our State Supreme Court threw laws out that were vague and/or contradictory.

 

Hopefully this works.

[john510]

I had a 1970 510 with a smog pump and single point distributor.I had a 1972 510 that did not but had dual points.The smog guy told me the '72 had changes to the carburetor to allow no smog pump.They both always passed easily.

[Soundline]

Just got off the phone with my State Rep, I’ll be having a conference call over this later in the week.  We’ll be discussing the wording for the enforcement code.

 

Apparently the wording currently is from a CA proposal.  Looks like the EPA is trying to mandate all states use these Emissions Detection And Reporting (EDAR) systems with them going up in 2021.  The enforcement codes were written as a hodgepodge of stuff by a variety of states.  Like most bills which become law in the US they’re hastily typed up by legal aides, who are not experts in the field of the Bill.  They’re then sent to a committee who typically doesn’t have the time to read them before they are voted on.

 

The one for WA and the one for CA both contradict themselves... However, the bill currently requires manufacturers to “make replacement emissions parts for the life of all vehicles”.  How exactly that would be enforced they have no clue.  Are they going to fine Datsun?  What about Saturn, Pontiac, Mercury... Its totally a nightmare in its current state.

 

My input is to stick to the 25 years and newer.  If they want to legally mandate the manufactures make replacement parts they need to have a start date sometime in the future and then have a reasonable end date.  
 

Opened a can of worms here.. but a grassroots resistance to a law has been able to change things in the past.  Maybe we can derail this train before it leaves the station.

[datzenmike]

Lets revisit this in 2021 and see which way the wind blows. I say it'll never happen, and least of all for older cars with carburetors. California? all bets are off they are idiotic.

 

[bilzbobaggins]

8 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Lets revisit this in 2021 and see which way the wind blows. I say it'll never happen, and least of all for older cars with carburetors. California? all bets are off they are idiotic.

 

 

You made me check my calendar.  lolololol

[Ooph!]

4 hours ago, Soundline said:

 

The one for WA and the one for CA both contradict themselves... However, the bill currently requires manufacturers to “make replacement emissions parts for the life of all vehicles”.  How exactly that would be enforced they have no clue.  Are they going to fine Datsun?  What about Saturn, Pontiac, Mercury... Its totally a nightmare in its current state.

 

My input is to stick to the 25 years and newer.  If they want to legally mandate the manufactures make replacement parts they need to have a start date sometime in the future and then have a reasonable end date.  
 

Opened a can of worms here.. but a grassroots resistance to a law has been able to change things in the past.  Maybe we can derail this train before it leaves the station.

 

Enforcement will come through retirement of older vehicles because they won't conform, in much the same way my 1999 diesel pickup is now covered by the biennial smog test requirement and wasn't until it was 11 years old.

[datzenmike]

5 hours ago, datzenmike said:

  California? all bets are off they are idiotic.

 

 

Present company accepted. I mean the rules and the nanny rule makers.

[Soundline]

1 hour ago, Ooph! said:

 

Enforcement will come through retirement of older vehicles because they won't conform, in much the same way my 1999 diesel pickup is now covered by the biennial smog test requirement and wasn't until it was 11 years old.

Ooph, I understand that’s how CA’s current laws work, that is not how the EPA criminal code reads.

 

This hurts me to say, but the CA law “makes sense” by comparison to the criminal code. 
 

Also if your 1999 truck fails, CA won’t criminally charge you, fine you, and crush it.  I’m not opposed to EPA restrictions, they just have to be reasonable.  The first rig I saw the EPA crush was a 2009 Dodge 3500 diesel in 2010.  The owner had made it capable of coal rolling.  They fined the owner $40,000, shut down the tuner shop that the dude had setup, and crushed his truck.

[yenpit]

19 hours ago, Soundline said:

Just got off the phone with my State Rep, I’ll be having a conference call over this later in the week.  We’ll be discussing the wording for the enforcement code.

 

Apparently the wording currently is from a CA proposal.  Looks like the EPA is trying to mandate all states use these Emissions Detection And Reporting (EDAR) systems with them going up in 2021.  The enforcement codes were written as a hodgepodge of stuff by a variety of states.  Like most bills which become law in the US they’re hastily typed up by legal aides, who are not experts in the field of the Bill.  They’re then sent to a committee who typically doesn’t have the time to read them before they are voted on.

 

The one for WA and the one for CA both contradict themselves... However, the bill currently requires manufacturers to “make replacement emissions parts for the life of all vehicles”.  How exactly that would be enforced they have no clue.  Are they going to fine Datsun?  What about Saturn, Pontiac, Mercury... Its totally a nightmare in its current state.

 

My input is to stick to the 25 years and newer.  If they want to legally mandate the manufactures make replacement parts they need to have a start date sometime in the future and then have a reasonable end date.  
 

Opened a can of worms here.. but a grassroots resistance to a law has been able to change things in the past.  Maybe we can derail this train before it leaves the station.

 

We just had a real scare here in Colorado!  As of January 1st 2021, we heard that Colorado had adopted the stringent Cali CARB emissions standards. We were right in the middle of an LS3 swap in a Corvette.  Our customer called freaking out that his car would NEVER pass that!  We put everything on hold for 2 days, while we tried to get an answer from the State, which of course, is on skeleton crews.  Bottom line, these new to Colorado CARB standards are only going to be applied to 2021 models & newer...............they will NOT be retroactive.  I don't see how any State could possibly make such drastic changes & apply them to older cars, that very likely could not pass.  Imagine how many people would be put out & could not afford to upgrade to a newer car?     

[MikeRL411]

2 hours ago, yenpit said:

 

  I don't see how any State could possibly make such drastic changes & apply them to older cars, that very likely could not pass.  Imagine how many people would be put out & could not afford to upgrade to a newer car?     

 

It  has happened before!  The very year my 1967 Datsun would have become exempt California gifted me with 5 nore years of annual inspections,

[yenpit]

49 minutes ago, MikeRL411 said:

 

It  has happened before!  The very year my 1967 Datsun would have become exempt California gifted me with 5 nore years of annual inspections,

 

So Cali did impose new laws/rules on older classic cars?  Ugh.  If Cali did something like that, I hope Gov' Polis isn't stupid enough to try it here in Colorado...........😒