Toyota FJ40 Dana 30 or 44 part interchange question

[frankendat]

Summary, to save time:

1. How to use complete FJ40 3^rd members, or FJ40 ring pinion with a Dana 44 carrier (carrier = housing that holds spider gears), Dana axles, Dana tubes (given matching splines) to build front and rear differentials.

 

2. Why the high price to install new ring and pinion?

 

I understand this is not Pirate 4X4 and this idea is more suited to those forums, but you have to wade through so much, “Why you doing that? You should do this.”  Blah, blah, blah, to get a straight answer, I am asking the Ratsun brain trust. Besides, I like you guys better.

 

So, a quick intro, the ONLY reason that I am exploring this idea, is that I have these parts on hand. They are parts I have collected for different projects over the years and it would be great to use them. I attempted to sell some of them, but didn’t have much interest.

 

As of now, I have (1) complete 3:07 Dana 44 rear differential, (1) complete 3:07 Dana 35 rear differential, (1) complete 3:07 HP Dana 30 front differential, (2) FJ40 center housings with 4:11 ring and pinion. (Front and Rear), (2) new Warn locking hubs, (2) restored Chevy KC Flat top knuckles machined for High Steer, (2) custom brake brackets to use Mitsubishi brakes on Dana 44 axles (2) sets front/rear) Mitsubishi brakes/rotors. Finally, I have a set of restored Dana 44 “C’s" originally procured to attache the flat top knuckles to the HP Dana 30.There might be some items that I am forgetting, but this is definitely most of it.

 

What I would like, is to build a complete front and rear with the FJ40 3^rd Members with Dana axles and  (or if not possible, the FJ40 ring and pinion in the FJ40 housing with the Dana 44 carrier) the Dana Flat top knuckles and at least one side of any of the previously mentioned axles, depending on, which spline count is compatible with the carrier. if the best option is using the HP Dana 30 front Dana 44 rear. The front HP Dana 30/44 rear was an earlier plan, because, at the time, I had a line on inexpensive replacement ring and pinion gears. But, I was ignorant of the cost of installing a new ring and pinion. The cheapest back yard no warranty mechanic wanted over $250 per set to do it and wanted the units delivered stripped a part, without any dirt or oil. That is double than what I wanted to pay. My thinking is, with experience, new parts, and a clean housing, dialing in the ring and pinion, should be a 1 hour per axle job and even including shop fees, shouldn't be much over $100 per set (not including California or West Oregon, West Washington) But, I have not accomplished it and am talking out my ass.

There is some discussion on the Internet regarding Dana Toyota hybrids, but most are focused on Toyota pickup and Dana 44 not FJ40.

If you made it this far, THANK YOU. I wanted to be thorough. if other mix and match ideas come from this bunch of parts, please feel free to mention.

Edited March 18, 2021 by frankendat

[banzai510(hainz)]

pm Stoffregen Motorsports      he would know for sure he know landcruisers

[frankendat]

6 hours ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

pm Stoffregen Motorsports      he would know for sure he know landcruisers

Thank you will do.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yep, sure do. Thanks Hainz.

 

Toyota differentials will not fit in a Dana 44 axle, or any Dana axle for that matter.

 

A Dana 44 axle has axle tubes pressed into the differential housing, thus making the diff a part of the axle.

A Toyota FJ40 uses what is called a Toyota 9.5" differential and it is removable from the axle housing, remaining intact once it is removed.

 

Diffs are not expensive to build. Most shops will set up a ring and pinion gearset for around $300. If you are talking about an entire axle build, yes those can get expensive. I charge about $4000 to rebuild a Land Crusier axle, but they are all new and beautiful restoration grade when done. On the flip side, a custom D44 axle with a locker and chromoly shafts, big brakes, good knuckles, etc, can run well over $12000 just for a front axle.

 

Building a custom hybrid axle as you described is totally doable, but I would not use D30/D44 knuckles. Use D60 instead. They are much stronger. Either way, this is a custom axle and can be built or bought. My friend Brian Ellinger builds custom axle housings at his shop Front Range Off Road in CO, or you can get one from Ruff Stuff near Sacramento. Spidertrax, Currie and others also make what you're looking for.

 

You can also cut and machine pieces from all of those above parts and fit and weld them together, but it takes at the very least, an axle housing alignment bar, to make sure everything gets together straight.

 

But, I wouldn't do any of that...

 

Toyota parts (especially LC axle parts) are superior in just about every way to the Dana 30/44 counterparts. The ring and pinon gears are larger diameter, the metal used in the ring and pinion gears is better, the knuckles are stronger, the birfield joints last longer and are stronger. If you are trying to find a home for the parts you've got laying around, sell them to someone who needs them to fund your project. This is what you call a fools errand, or another phrase - the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

 

It would be helpful if I knew what you were trying to achieve. Also what you are going to use the rig for and what is your budget, if you have one. I know, you want direct answers, but if you had a goal in mind, that would help me be able to point you in the right direction.

[frankendat]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, questions I ask are only to further my understanding and are in no way intended to doubt or undermine your advice.

If I understand your assessment of my idea, of using parts on hand to create working axles. While it might be possible, it will require work/time to build a set, that bring no improvement, possibly a detriment, when compared to stock.

I agree FJ40 parts are superior, but they have increased in price substantially, over the years and exceed my budget.  The cost of FJ40 axles and knuckles would consume my savings.

Speaking of budgets, if you are in California, then to accomplish the same project, would likely be double what I have allocated for mine. For example, I mentioned earlier, to install new ring and pinion (“set up a differential”), I was quoted $200 and squealed about the price. (of course, with the massive immigration from states, like California, to Idaho, that is changing fast)

My project, is a little 4wd Suzuki, the precursor and a little smaller than the Samurai. The goal is to have the ability to go to all the places my FJ40, with the 2F would go, but have a total width, outside wheel to outside wheel of 50 inches. There are other goals, but for the purposes of front and rear axle strength, that is most relevant here.

I have attempted to sell the FJ40 and Dana parts without success. My build (perhaps all builds?) is in a constant state of tradeoff. To arrive here, I first considered Samurai axles, smaller than the FJ40 axles, but not as strong, and with a limited axle selection to “mix and match” higher cost custom axles would be required. The same rationales were  used for Datsun/Nissan axles. Dana 30’s have a smaller middle pumpkin, are reportedly stronger than the aforementioned, have ample stock axles to mix and match and achieve the desired width, but the knuckles and C’s are reported  weak. (Since, my little rig is closest to a Samurai, it was on Samurai websites where I encountered the negative reviews of stock Samurai axles) I found  an online tutorial for installing Dana 44 flat top knuckles and C’s on a Dana 30 and purchased  the parts to make it happen. The  XJ front HP Dana 30, has a short side axle, that when used for both the long side and the short side, along with the right wheel back space and tire, meets the 50 inch requirement. The rear Dana 35 is not loved by many and I didn’t pay much for it. After purchasing the 35 I found  a great deal on a Dana 44 and a 44 on my little rig should be bullet proof. When making these purchases I was ignorant of the costs involved to “setup” a differential , $200-$400 on top of the price of the differential/axles and new R/P made my“good deals” shit.

So, I am looking for a way to make chicken salad out of the chicken shit I have acquired. I’ll have access to a mill and a lathe for a couple weeks at the end of the month and I have a Mig gas welder and stick welder. As  far as welding, I can put metal together, but lack confidence to weld structural pieces. How do the axle tubes attach to the third member (is that the correct term?) in the FJ40?

Damn, these posts get long fast. I forgot to mention, I have a chromemoly very short axle for a Dana 44 out of a trencher that might work for a short side axle on the 44, but it is odd in that both ends are splined. I know there are splined hubs in the world, I have seen them on Sprint racers, but what prevents a splined hub from slipping out when  wheeling?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

So you do have a goal in mind, good. 50" wide is very narrow and you have obviously done the homework to find out how it is done, and yes, it is a custom process. Anytime you have to pay for custom work that involves a great deal of accuracy, the price can be staggering. I don't know why you want such a narrow setup, but if you want what you want, who am I to argue?

 

 

Let's address your criteria one by one.

 

50" wide axle - you could use the D30 or D44, but there are a few variants out there. First off, since those axles came under many different sizes of trucks, not all of the axle tubes are the same diameter. Make sure the knuckles you want to use will fit the axle tubes you have. Also, the early D30s use the same knuckles and Cs as the D44, some of which were flat for the high steer arms. Some weren't. Chevy trucks usually had the high steer setup, but Ford and Jeep did not. Early axles (think early Jeep) have coarse splined shafts, which are weak. You could simply narrow a D30/D44 and have what you need, but as I mentioned earlier, an axle alignment bar and the appropriate pucks will be needed to do so. Sure, guys have narrowed or widened axles without any special tooling, but this usually leads to problems like worn wheel bearings, mismatched camber/caster, etc.

 

One other thing to think about with that narrow of an axle, is how it's going to fit in the rig. You need to have room on the axle tubes to mount the shocks and the springs. If the packaging is too tight, you won't have enough room on the front axle to be able to turn the steering wheel lock to lock before the tire hits the springs or body.

 

You could use the Toyota center section or even just narrow the stock Toyota axle, but it sounds like all you have is the diffs. Do you or do you not have the Toyota axle housings? A few years ago, there was a thread on Pirate of a guy selling his axle building tools. The thread shows pics of how to narrow or widen a Toyota housing. Check it out. It will give you an idea of what goes into the process - https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/axle-jig-parts-to-build-a-custom-toyota-8-or-9-5-axle-housing.2054466/

 

Your budget - which is definitely in the do-it-yourself category. If you must build your own axle, maybe you could figure out how to budget for the more difficult parts of the job. Maybe you could cut your own parts and then have a shop fit and weld them together.

 

One last thing, in defense of the cost of a R&P setup. Shops charge for their time, and $200 is about two hours at most shops. None of us would be in business if we didn't charge for our time. I know that shop rates vary from state to state, and I have seen them from $50/hr all the way up to $200/hr. I started out at $50/hr, but I am now at $120/hr, and I am finally starting to be able to put money in the bank. After all these years in the business, I am finally able to start saving for retirement. So think about that too. We just want to get paid and maybe put some away for our golden years.

 

I almost forgot to ask, what size tire do you want to run? The answer to that question will affect a lot of things.

[frankendat]

Stoffregen Motorsports. I appreciate your insight and your time. Although, at 120hr I worry of pending charges to my account.

A quick question on formatting, when I post, paragraph breaks and/or breaks t that isolate specific points are deleted, resulting in one big block of text. How do you retain spacing in your posts?

Returning to shop rates, I understand and agree.  My father is/was a machinist. I say is/was, because even over 80 and in poor health, people still drop by the “closed” shop, when other machinists are unable to help.

So, when I said, $200 to set up a differential made me squeal, I should have added, I do not think $200 is unreasonable, but the price should bring a shop and warranty of some sort.  For $200, all I could find were backyard cash only mechanics.  It is what it is. I am still surprised when people ask more than $50,000 for a F-150 and keep a straight face. 

The 50-inch requirement is, one of too many occasions, where I try to comply with government regulations, only to be the fool.

A decade, give or take, past, environmentalists took aim at off-road vehicles, specifically, off road vehicles operating on Government land. Before I could walk, my family and I hunted, hiked, fished, and enjoyed a section of central Idaho. The primary vehicle, for exploration was a FJ40.

The destruction and restriction of that area, by special interest groups and venture capitalists is staggering and makes me sad. I could fill pages recounting the various schemes employed to take access of this land and its resources from people like me. The destruction has been bi-partisan, as cash is the common denominator and those without, are not part of the equation. But, I digress.

Returning to the Environmentalists, 4wd vehicles were getting bigger (and still are) and Environmentalists voiced concern, of the damage, to government land, brought by large vehicles. State and Federal governments released land use maps that only recognized some trails as legitimate and classified other trails, as either pedestrian, horse, motorcycle, vehicles 50in or less in width, or full size vehicles. The overwhelming majority of trails enjoyed with the FJ40  were restricted to 50in or less. The ATV market was quick to respond and released the 50in RZR trail, a sidexside (SXS).

SXS’s are great, but at the time, cost over10k, which was the first problem. Next, a truck is required  to haul the RZR, either in the back or on a trailer. I put a hitch on my Sentra that pulls a little HF trailer that I beefed up a bit, but would be wary of the weight of an SXS.

To fulfill my requirements, I needed a vehicle, similar to a FJ40, able to drive on the highway and either carry gear in the back for base camp, or pull a little trailer. Once unloaded, an enclosed vehicle able to conquer trails, with a passenger, like an FJ40. Finally, I live in the city and lack space and funds to store a ““few times a year”  rig. Best solution the project should be, at least a part-time daily driver. It took a long time to determine if such a vehicle exists, and a longer time to find one.

Now, where I am the fool. Employment and health issues slowed the project. Sometime in the last decade, without media announcement, petition, or fanfare, trails in the area in central Idaho switched back to full size vehicles. There are still once common trails, that are not recognized and a few of the 50in trails, switched to motorcycle or horse, but most of the trails that inspired the project have returned to full size.

And that’s where it’s at.

I toyed with employing 5in wheel spacers, to increase the width to 60in, (same as early VW) for a more stability, when daily driving. But, retaining the option of returning to 50in if I come across a restricted trail that must be traveled. Posters on lowrider boards, experienced with wheel spacers, do not recommend, removing and replacing wheel spacers. Additionally, wheel spacers put strain on hubs and wheel bearings. I am curious of the rationale prohibiting removal and replacing. Regarding additional bearing and/or hub wear, could this be greatly reduced or eliminated through modification of axle design?

I am fairly certain, if my quest for 50in width is abandoned, some federal or state agency will reinstate the regulation. Federal and State agencies are one more thing, changed for the worse. When I was a kid, my family had great relationships with Fish and Game, we would drop by their office, whenever in the area, even shared a few meals. Anymore, I avoid fish cops, like I owe them money.

Tires, more probable than not, will be 235/85/16

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Spacing is simple, like writing a word document or an email. I use a PC though for these forums. I would bet you're using a smart phone.

 

Land issues have gone through this region too, when Karen Schambach took aim at all the off road trails in the Sierras, but mainly aimed at the Rubicon trail. She was relentless in her pursuits but we finally beat them off by being strong. For the Rubicon, it came down to a bridge. The bridge over Ellis Creek is reported to have cost over $1 million bucks, and the story goes that it was her last effort to try and close our trail. She never thought we would end up being resourceful enough to meet her challenge head on and raise the funds to build the bridge. She and her group fought us for years, sending hikers up to photograph us out in the wild "destroying nature". At local town hall meetings, I remember one friend standing up and exclaiming "you people think we are all out here because we want to destroy nature. You're wrong. We're here because we love it." I think that was a shock to the opposition, that we who enjoy the wilderness via motorized transport, could possibly be like them.

 

Long story short, we came together and met every challenge with equal force, but also with the understanding that working with these groups is the only way forward, because they're relentless. I am sure that some of the rumors I've heard over the years are false, but she and her group has been rumored to play sabotage games on us by moving trail markers and then pointing out that we're driving in out of bounds areas, among other stupid, non-productive measures.

 

Anyway, I am familiar with your plight. We also have narrow access trails here, like the Barrett lake trail, which I will post a pic of my Rover on the bridge over Silver Creek below.

 

Speaking of my Rover, it is narrow, using stock width Toyota min truck axles, and tall, skinny 34x9.50 tires on stock Toyota 15" wheels, but no where near your 50" width. Even with the stock axles, I bet I am over 65" wide, outside of tire to outside of tire (I've never actually measured).

 

50" is so narrow that the tires would be much narrower than the body of even the tiniest rigs. Unless maybe an old 2 stroke Suzuki Jimny/Brute. Just to clarify, are you actually trying to maintain 50" from outside of tire to outside of tire? I thought you meant WMS width. WMS is a generic term used for wheel mount surface.

 

Adding spacers is never a good idea. You've mentioned the strain on wheel bearings and balljoints, but there are other concerns too. Potential for death wobble is greatly increased as the wheel backspace decreases. Ideally, the kingpin centerline would be just inside of the centerline of the tire. Adding spacers pushes that kingpin centerline more and more inside, and in some case, not even inside the tire's footprint altogether. This causes leverage that is harder and harder to control as the lever increases. Steering systems using the best and strongest components still cannot overcome the leverage put on them and death wobble becomes a real problem at road speeds.

 

Then there's the problem of steering arc. The further you push the tire out, the more arc that wheel/tire has in the steering motion, sometimes to the point of pushing the tire into the bumper, fender, leaf springs, etc.

 

So not trying to rain on your parade, I think 50" wide is not an achievable goal. At least not one worth pursuing. There are too many pitfalls. You're welcome to prove me wrong though...

 

Here's that pic of my 1957 Land Rover.

 

[frankendat]

Your rover rocks! Why Toyota copied it for the FJ40. Mini truck axles? I do not have direct experience, but ranked them with Samurai or Datsun axles, weaker than a Dana 30. Is this incorrect?

Smart phone!? Good God no, since “smart phones” went to touch screens, I am a painfully slow operator. I miss phone keyboards/buttons.  I type my posts in Word and cut and paste. If something happens, I get distracted, etc. Ratsun won’t time out and posts are not lost. I have embraced cut and paste. The spacing problem persists,  regardless if pasted in rich or plain text.

An excellent example of the sad, misguided, stupidity, of the “save the bunnies bunch”. Either, as part of a misguided campaign to gain support for new trail restrictions, or as a way to spend federal money. “Concern for safety”  was a reason provided for a multi-million dollar “trail improvement” project, in the central Idaho area, that I frequent.  

The trail chosen for improvement, I knew well. The FJ40 could take it, but there were some sketchy spots, which became real problems, after rain, or early in the spring thaw.  Anyway, with the “improvements”,  I can navigate the trail in a 2wd.

Guess what happened? More people used it and people, being generally crappy, trashed this once pristine back country area. Fish and Game, tried to close the “super highway” trail, but the cat was out of the bag. Eventually, most of the super highway was left, but restricted, depending on time of year or hunting season. At least one section was destroyed, with heavy machinery, funded by tax dollars.

At first look, this is a just another story of the problem of federal agencies attempting to regulate state affairs, unfortunately, it could be more sinister. Damage of the areas made accessible by the “super highway” was presented as evidence for more access and land use restrictions.

Returning to my project (I could lament all day on the problems of back country legislation)

The base of this endeavor is a 1972 Suzuki LJ20 a.k.a. Jimny. A little trimming and it meets 50in width.  In an earlier revision of this project, I considered installing a diesel Ruggerini 2 cylinder 20hp engine. I have one leftover from a different endeavor and I found a guy that installed a small turbo on one and claimed 25hp. After much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, I pivoted to a single vehicle for both transport to the forest and transportation, in the forest. The LJ20 has been successfully converted to a Datsun A series engine, by a number of people. I took measurements and determined a L series would fit. Frustration with L series availability/prices, I opted for a Z series and figure I’ll just make it fit.

My biggest concern, regarding engine fitment is the arc of the wheel with the short straight axle, causing the tire to impact the engine/engine accessories.  As far as turning radius, brake and spring fitting. Using the short side of the XJ axle for both short and long sides of my axle, should retain sufficient turning radius and space for brake and spring. Because XJ’s are not impaired, when turning to the short side. If this is flawed reasoning, I have a contingency independent front suspension plan that utilizes junkyard A arms, but would require frame modification. I opted for the Dana 30, because I have one and the rationale provided earlier, that in my mind, ensured it would fit.

Have you ever been driving in the country and come across a farm with acres of rusting cars, trucks, tractors and other odd things in the fields around the house. If I won the lottery….

Edited March 22, 2021 by frankendat

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

The 8" differentials in Toyota mini truck axles are stronger than a D30 and similar strength to a D44, but that's not the whole story. The Toyota knuckles, spindles, bearing, locking hubs and birfields (aftermarket Longfields or RCVs) are superior to D30/D44 parts.

 

I'm not pasting from word. I just type straight into the forum reply window.

 

Federal agencies? Not always. In our fight to keep the trails open, the troubles were caused by one woman on a crusade. She gained momentum locally and then moved onto gathering support from the government. After we won our fight, she even said that she didn't think we had it in us to beat her. She then bowed out gracefully and has since not been a problem.

 

The Rubicon had a spot called "Gatekeeper" which was so named because if you couldn't make it through there, you didn't belong on the trail. They dynamited it about 10 years ago because of "erosion" issues and the same has happened here. More traffic, and not the kind that knows what they are doing. 

 

It's not always the greenies that are the problem though. We had a situation where a guy from SoCal came up to the Rubicon in a buggy and he drove off trail onto a "pristine meadow" and was doing donuts and climbing trees. He posted a video which went viral. That was ammunition for the opposition. So proper trail etiquette is not something everybody knows. They have to be taught, and that's ok too.

 

Back to your project, you would probably need to narrow or pinch the frame to get the spring location on the axle in the same spot as original. Not saying it can't be done, but this seems like a huge endeavor. But... the rig you describe could be worthy of the task. It sounds very cool and unique. There is a guy I know named Brennan Metcalf whose is building a 3/4 scale flat fender Jeep. Totally from scratch. You can find him on Instagram and Facebook. For his power, he's using a Geo Metro 1.0L 3 cylinder, which mates to a Samurai drivetrain. That's key because of the extensive parts availability for Samurai t-cases.

 

Are you stuck on using Nissan/Datsun power? Not many options there. One issue you may come up against in such a small rig is wheelbase vs drivetrain length. I had a similar problem in my Rover. In it's first iteration, the long Toyota W series transmission was so long that I had to make my own custom 14" long rear driveshaft. It was so short that there was no tubing in it at all. I machined the sections where the tubing would be welded, so they mated together in a socket and then welded them together. It worked well enough, but due to the high angle of the pinion, the slip yokes would wear out. I eventually swapped in an older R series transmission which I got from my friend Marlin, of Marlin Crawler. It is 5" shorter and allowed me to build a longer driveshaft, lower the pinion angle on the rear diff, and now I don't have that problem. Your situation may be similar. Nissan transmissions are not very short, and would have to use a divorced t-case, making for quite a long drivetrain, and very short rear driveshaft.

 

Here in CA, where there are old rotting vehicles, the owners are used to being approached by collectors or speculators and are usually very grumpy about selling. Most times they would rather let the vehicles rot than sell them. It's idiotic, and that attitude frustrates me, so I don't even bother anymore...