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what relay is this? other remaining connections? Datsun 510 L20


Retro Wave

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 Ok so i been messing with the wiring of my father car which is a Datsun 510 with an L20 engine and a 5 speed transmission from a what  i believe came out of a 1978 610/710 truck (i forgot at the moment).  I been doing a wire tuck to give the engine bay a cleaner look PLUS less stuff hanging around. I think i am almost done but hit a few bumps along the way. At the moment im trying to figure out what is this relay called? what does it do? and is it necessary to have?  

 

 im not next to the car at the moment but i will try my best to describe. It has three green wire; if i remember correctly two green wires have yellow lines and the other green wire i think it was solid. I forgot where the wire go at the moment but i think one of the green / yellow line wires connects into the interior of the car under the dash - while the other green / yellow line wire connects to something call a signex speed indicator. The solid green cable I forgot where its connected to but as of now its a wire by itself which if  i remember correctly it was jumped onto another green cable but am unsure because im not next to the car at the moment.

 

*** I also notice that one of the green yellow wires connects to another connector which is related to the brake light signal from the brake proportion valve  / Yellow with green line wire? 

 I dont think i need the signex speed indicator because the car is a manual now but i dont think i can just disconnect it and call it a day because there are other wire associated with and/or around the indicator that probably needs to be connected to function.

 

Also the carb/throttle switch I disconnected because i dont have automatic transmission, i have a manual but in the wiring diagram its said that it sends a signal/ connected to/for neutral safety switch. I think its 1 wire that sends a signal and the other is of no use, how do i connect my neutral safety switch as well? I have a 63a#1 transmission and both neutral safety switch & back-up light switch are located on the passager side of the transmission. I did connect the back-up light switch but the neutral i have not yet

 

So in short my questions would be...

- what is this relay called? is it necessary? what function does it do?

-brake proportion valve = yellow/green line wire routed inside under-dash and  connected inside next to the passager side kickpanel where the "SIGNEX" is connected?

-Carb/throtle senor is disconnected but how do i connect the neutral safety switch wiring onto the 63a#1 transmission?

-Also on the diagram its said that i need to connect a clutch switch wire but when looking at my pedals i dont see a clutch switch only the brakes have a switch and the gas pedal has a switch which *clicks* when you floor it. Do i have to worry if its missing? 

-as for the points distributor, I connected three out of the four wires. do i need the 4th wire connected? i think that wire was running towards the carb/throttle switch which i eliminated. I forgot which one

 

Car was in poor condition and i been trying to get her as decent and fresh as possible for 2020 VS leaving it the way it was 1972 fourthly year old wiring+ pervious owners DIY fix-its / splicings

 

 de17SVs.jpg

my photo of the relay in question

 

 

CAbxsvz.jpg

members stock photo

 

6fhsxxx.jpg

brake light wire = yellow / green line

 

NLrxnLJ.jpg

Carb / throttle switch connector

fn35Dsn.jpg

 

s2hq8i7.jpg

 

YkWufiQ.jpg

 

6NPmeBl.jpg

 

nHUU9xU.jpg

 

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CAbxsvz.jpg

 

This is the horn relay

 

6fhsxxx.jpg

 

Not proportioning valve. This is the brake warning light. In normal use it has pressure on both sides of the switch. If there is a failure in either the front or rear circuit the remainder with pressure will move the switch to it's on position illuminating the brake light on the dash. The same one that lights if you forget your emergency brake on.

 

 

The carburetor switch, neutral and top gear switch wiring and the clutch switch wiring you can disconnect and remove. These are all to do with turning the extra set of points on or off under certain conditions. This allows the distributor to run retarded by about 4 degrees to reduce emissions in certain gears and throttle positions. If you have a dual point distributor on the L20B just disconnect the relay and it will run proper advance like engines were intended to run. There will likely be a small relay near the coil for switching the points on an off. This can go also. It will have Black, Blue/Yellow (stripe), Brown/Red and Brown/Yellow wires to it.This thing...

 

6NPmeBl.jpg

 

 

s2hq8i7.jpg

 

This is a 5 speed (with overdrive) FS5W63A also known as a dogleg transmission because of it's reverse above first shift pattern. It was used in several cars but in L series trim it was the standard transmission in the '77-'79 S10 200sx and as an option on the '78-'79) A10 (HL510)

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54 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

CAbxsvz.jpg

 

This is the horn relay

 

 

 

That square relay circled is another horn relay?  I look at the datsun wiring diagram and i only shows one. I thought it was a starter relay from reading multiple forums but the percentage that it is a starter relay- it very low. 

 

  datsun_510_wiring_diagram.png

fR6BOb4.jpg

Horn relay from my 1972 datsun 510

54 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 The carburetor switch, neutral and top gear switch wiring and the clutch switch wiring you can disconnect and remove. These are all to do with turning the extra set of points on or off under certain conditions. This allows the distributor to run retarded by about 4 degrees to reduce emissions in certain gears and throttle positions. If you have a dual point distributor on the L20B just disconnect the relay and it will run proper advance like engines were intended to run. There will likely be a small relay near the coil for switching the points on an off. This can go also. It will have Black, Blue/Yellow (stripe), Brown/Red and Brown/Yellow wires to it.This thing...

 

6NPmeBl.jpg

 

 

 

 

htBs8Dm.jpg

 

OK im alittle confused but im thinking about it as i am writing and viewing diagram. I disconnected the Carb switch completely. I don't know what third switch means and how it looks like but im not too concern because i dont have the blue/yellow wire connected to the relay circled in pink.

 

"If you have a dual point distributor on the L20B just disconnect the relay and it will run proper advance like engines were intended to run." 

do you mean the relay thats attached to the radiator / the four wires pictured? I thought you needed that for the point distributor?

 

" There will likely be a small relay near the coil for switching the points on an off. This can go also"

- this is a picture i took before i started to dismantle the engine bay apart to clean sand and grind all the rust and red paint out of the car and  my father prime & paint the bay. i dont remember seeing a relay near the coil

 

nMBdYmk.jpg

 

 

The neutral switch do i need it?  how do i make the connection?  If i am informing anything wrong please correct me. im not too familiar with datsuns but i do want everything to be working as it should ... or at least close to it.

 

I did re-connect the back-up light switch wiring that was missing and replaced both switches circled which were both broken and non-functional.

6dVixWc.jpg 

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The 510 originally had dual points. Here's how they worked and why....

 

 

In normal operation only the first set of points are working. When the points open the coil makes a spark. The second set of points are adjusted so that they open about 4 degrees later. When the clutch, transmission and carburetor switches are correct under certain conditions the relay activates the second set of points and because they open later the spark is delayed, or retarded about 4 degrees. This is for emissions purposes.

 

I don't know what distributor you have on your 510. It could be single points and all this is for nothing. It may have dual points and could be set up like the original 510.

 

 

 

 

You removed the carburetor switch then the neutral switch and the relay for the distributor aren't needed. I assumed the dual point distributor relay was mounted near the coil. This thing...

 

6NPmeBl.jpg

 

... looks plugged in so I'm saying that you don't need it.

 

The neutral switch has to stay in the transmission to keep the oil in but those wires are no use any more also. All you need are the back up lights.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, datzenmike said:
5 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

You removed the carburetor switch then the neutral switch and the relay for the distributor aren't needed. I assumed the dual point distributor relay was mounted near the coil. This thing...

 

... looks plugged in so I'm saying that you don't need it.

 

The neutral switch has to stay in the transmission to keep the oil in but those wires are no use any more also. All you need are the back up lights.

 

 

 

 

 

OK so from what you are saying.

 

1) I don't need the relay with the 4 wires (shown in picture) for the distributor. I can eliminate it completely including the wires that connect to coil & distributor and still have the car start without it? As you said its mostly for emissions which controls the 2nd set of points when everything is connected from factory (Speed indicator, throttle switch, neutral safety switch, 4 plug relay ,ect)   - i didnt know that, i learned something new :)

 

2) I don't need to connect any wires to the neutral safety switch on the manual transmission but must remain cause as you said oil will spill out

 

3) Clutch switch isnt needed because of #2 (above) so that solves that problem

 

4) Im guessing i dont need that "SIGNEX Control" or the speed indicator as well and could disconnect it from the kick panel, correct? seeing that it also runs with the emissions items mention above.

 

- are you sure that's a horn relay? reason i ask is because i have the horn relay connected already and assume there is only one. 

-since im disconnecting the Speed indicator do i need to loop the other wires that were connected to the signex? I dont have pictures and it kinda hard to explain  but i will get pictures tomorrow of what i am trying to describe. 

 

Yes i do have a dual point distributor install in my fathers engine

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1/ not needed but don't pull any important wires to the distributor just the Black/Red probably to the coil positive terminal and the Black/Yellow one sending power from the relay to the 2nd points.

 

2/ Disconnect wires to the NSS

 

3/ Clutch switch not needed because part of the system being removed anyway.

 

4/ Where was this Signex located????

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On 11/28/2020 at 5:46 PM, Retro Wave said:

OK so from what you are saying.

 

1) I don't need the relay with the 4 wires (shown in picture) for the distributor. I can eliminate it completely including the wires that connect to coil & distributor and still have the car start without it? As you said its mostly for emissions which controls the 2nd set of points when everything is connected from factory (Speed indicator, throttle switch, neutral safety switch, 4 plug relay ,ect)   - i didnt know that, i learned something new 🙂

 

2) I don't need to connect any wires to the neutral safety switch on the manual transmission but must remain cause as you said oil will spill out

 

3) Clutch switch isnt needed because of #2 (above) so that solves that problem

 

4) Im guessing i dont need that "SIGNEX Control" or the speed indicator as well and could disconnect it from the kick panel, correct? seeing that it also runs with the emissions items mention above.

 

- are you sure that's a horn relay? reason i ask is because i have the horn relay connected already and assume there is only one. 

-since im disconnecting the Speed indicator do i need to loop the other wires that were connected to the signex? I dont have pictures and it kinda hard to explain  but i will get pictures tomorrow of what i am trying to describe. 

 

Yes i do have a dual point distributor install in my fathers engine

 

1) correct, delete & cut wires back & tape.  That big 4 wire relay was located on the drivers side rad core support, can't remember what for, but of no use!

2) correct, 510 had no wires for this

3) correct, cut wires back & tape.............emission junk

4) Signex control box & wiring can be removed, cut wires back & tape.........emission junk

 

5) the 510 horn relay is located on the rear facing side of the passenger strut tower, closest to the fender.  The other relay right next to it is the headlight relay.  That picture with a small square relay circled in red is not of a 510, so not applicable............it is not the 510 horn relay

 

You should not need to utilize the 2nd (dual) point set, as datzenmike says.  The 68-69 510 dizzy was a single point, but kinda hard to find.  Best option is to find a later matchbox dizzy ie 1980 720 pick up (I have an exact application cuz we just identified a dizzy in a 620 today, as a 1980 720, by the part # stamped on the dizzy!)...........there ARE other Datsun's that used the matchbox dizzy.

 

Was this car an automatic with a recent manual swap, or has it run before WITH working reverse lamps?  If it WAS an auto, there are two quick wiring tricks needed to run the car & hook up reverse lamps.

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  • 3 months later...
On 11/30/2020 at 7:53 PM, yenpit said:

 

 

Was this car an automatic with a recent manual swap, or has it run before WITH working reverse lamps?  If it WAS an auto, there are two quick wiring tricks needed to run the car & hook up reverse lamps.

 

hi everyone, sorry i havent replyed back so soon. i had personal family issues and covid to add to it and couldnt mess with the car nor get back to people about certain electronic boxes / wires.

 

Hey yenpit, yes this use to be an auto back in its time with the 1st owner till he switched  it to manual. i been trying to clean up the engine bay and eliminated a few boxes, emission and wiring that is no longer  needed. i also upgraded mostly all the wiring from the engine bay to 14 gauge, 12 gauge and the black power cable 8 gauge.  i haven't tested the reverse lights or even looked back there as im still messing with the engine bay. i'll update this thread + post pictures of progress when i get back to working with the car - which is pretty soon.... 

 

yenpit can you tell me those two wiring tricks for the hook up on the reverse lamps? 

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15 hours ago, Retro Wave said:

 

hi everyone, sorry i havent replyed back so soon. i had personal family issues and covid to add to it and couldnt mess with the car nor get back to people about certain electronic boxes / wires.

 

Hey yenpit, yes this use to be an auto back in its time with the 1st owner till he switched  it to manual. i been trying to clean up the engine bay and eliminated a few boxes, emission and wiring that is no longer  needed. i also upgraded mostly all the wiring from the engine bay to 14 gauge, 12 gauge and the black power cable 8 gauge.  i haven't tested the reverse lights or even looked back there as im still messing with the engine bay. i'll update this thread + post pictures of progress when i get back to working with the car - which is pretty soon.... 

 

yenpit can you tell me those two wiring tricks for the hook up on the reverse lamps? 

 

Ugh.  I did a write up years ago on here, likely on the electrical page.......??  The reverse lamp switch on an AUTO was part of the neutral safety switch on the side of the auto trans.  There would have been a small sub harness going from the wiper motor harness, down to the drivers side of the auto trans.  You needed to create a simply jumper/loop wire to bypass the neutral safety so the engine would turn over............if the car was running with the manual swap, they would have had to do this.  What I remember regarding the reverse lamps, was two red/black wires for the reverse lamps in that same small sub harness where you create that loop, HOWEVER you won't get power at them, as you need to wire them to the relay on the inner front fender well, immediately behind the headlamps.  If somebody else did the auto-manual swap, that relay might be gone.  I remember having to run one of the red/black wires to the relay, then to the reverse switch on the manual trans.  Pretty sure the 2nd red/black wire ran from that small sub harness, down to the reverse switch.  Sorry, was 10 years ago!!  Worst case scenario, you could wire a simple toggle switch for the reverse lamps, but I don't do things like that unless 100% necessary!

 

Do you have the Paolo wiring diagram(s)?  If not, you should buy the automatic AND the manual diagrams from him.  I bought his complete set (6 or 8 different diagrams??), and use the diagrams often.  I don't see mention of what YEAR your 510 is, but if you have all the wiring for the dual points, it must be a 1970-1973 car.  That said, Paolo offers a 1970-1972 auto AND manual diagram.........again, you should get both.  This is what I have for contact info.............

 

 You can pay by personal/business check, money order.
Make checks payable to Paolo Musante (sorry, no Paypal)

Send mail to:

Axsys Technology Ltd.
Attn: Paolo Musante
1818 98th Street NW, Bldg D
Marysville, WA 98271

If you have questions, call 360-657-2700 and ask for Paolo or leave a message.
Release Notes: 1-JAN-2013

 

FYI for those looking to buy from Paolo, he never made the 1970 round gauges first 6mo production..............it is different than the late 1970-1972.  He also never made the 1973...............it is different than the late 1970-1972.

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17 hours ago, RLJ said:

yenpit,

is that information for the wiring diagrams current? I called the number and it’s disconnected. 

 

That's all I have.  Been 2+ years, but I have posted his contact info since! 🙄

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Here is the latest info on Datsun510.com:

 

https://datsun510.com/index.php?/gallery/image/36772-how-to-order-datsun-510-laminated-wiring-diagram-cards-or-poster/

 

Looks like the date is still 2013 and the number is the one you said is disconnected.  Paolo still frequents the Bluebird list so I can ask him on there about maybe updating the phone number.

Edited by iceman510
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Ok so as of now i eliminated the signex control box from inside the the car (located on the passager side kickpanel) and wrap the wires with black tape. I also eliminated the 4 plug relay that is located next to the radiator. I looking around and everything is so far so good. I have a few more questions about mysterious relays and wires. The pictures i shot are from a relay i have no idea what it is? I thought that it was a horn relay because of the color wires being all green BUT i have the horn relay connected already and followed the diagram above on the previous post.

 

20210404_171149.thumb.jpg.3013fcf2af6fe49a5a28e9e47858e0f7.jpg

 

??? What is this relay above?  is it Headlights?

 

20210404_170146.thumb.jpg.a394844cd7f5efa65a4cae9ea4ed1795.jpg

 

Not sure where these wires go 

- light blue with yellow line with  spade connector at the end

- middle section is empty

-Green and yellow line wire

 

 

 

 

 

 

20210404_170024.thumb.jpg.665559fe996acd42b6cebd4b77325359.jpg

-green with yellow line going to second connector in pervious photo above

-Middle section of connector was a new yellow wire

- light blue with black line going to a female bullet connector

 

20210404_170114.thumb.jpg.b09af98898d38ea047e6c1860f64c4f4.jpg

 

This connector fits perfectly with the relay i mentioned / picture above,

 

 

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Ok as for the battery cable and the ford solenoid connections i also followed this diagram as ICEMAN510 mention/provided.

 

My question would be : do i have to run an 8  gauge wire from the alternator all the way to the solenoid?  i have the alternator already wired with its own 8 gauge RED wire going to the fusebox and jumping into the other red wires mention in the diagram.

 

20210404_203949.thumb.jpg.42e829556ecd924e5e3dfb31c85e3b2b.jpg

Pictures of my new starter and its new connections = 

1) +Battery cable crimped and welded

2) New Black with white line wire = starter wire / Ignition

3)new blue fusable line 

4)Yellow with black line = oil light sender

 

20210404_203942.thumb.jpg.c6706f3ad2d5b969851e86f50085e2c2.jpg

 

My -Battery Cable connected to the engine block and black ground cable connected to other black cables like in the diagram.

 

20210404_203745.thumb.jpg.9741ea94eefdbbfccd60177d8c74b133.jpg

 

I manage to loosen the ignition wire (black and yellow line on the column of the steering wheel), cut the tip, added the yellow and black line cable, recrimped with new female spade, stalled back to column, run yellow cable under carpet and next to the solenoid....so far so good

 

20210404_194000.thumb.jpg.d38d35141beb04584e4c376ff65e7a4c.jpg

 

Im going to assume that it HAS to be a 8 gauge and nothing less, Correct?

also assuming that the 8 gauge wire from the alternator to the solenoid HAS to be connected even if you have it already connected the alternator like i have - Tried to follow factory wires and the diagram.

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here are the diagrams that i been following . Im also following the original factory wiring from my car (whatever is left of it) to a "T" because the car did started and ran with the existing wires.

 

 

 

https://www.z-car.com/blog/cars/datsun-510-wiring-diagram

1610592148_datsun_510_wiring_diagram(1).thumb.png.68e9e9a0173f9d2babcaaa8822ddb34e.png

 

 

batteryrelocation.png.1a9153abb67ba12d9a77909b1db5f780.png

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have 3 more questions involving wires/relays that *popped* up in my head

 

1) I still dont know what that relay is?  So i took the mystery wiring and relay off the car but left the yellow wire connected. the other two wires i took them out of their connector. i would still love to know what  that relay is? 

 

2) i was wondering is the ford solenoid suppose to be "ON" all the time? i thought one side of the ford solenoid suppose to have power (short 2gauge battery cable going to battery) and the long battery cable going from the other solenoid terminal to starter is suppose to be OFF/no power but its live/active/power ON? was curious and stuck a test light to see if it was OFF on one side BUT both sides are ON 

 

3) when i turn on and start the car i turn on the lights to see if they were working and once i did that my engine idle dropped and engine starts to shake/studder because of lower idle. is this suppose to happen or did i miss a connection, ground or something? Im still trying to find that sweet spot for my dual webers dcoe 40mm. i think i have it but once i turn the lights ON it screws up the whole carb adjustment process

 

 

 

ok so as of now we have connected everything and started the car for the 1st time and she has started. I checked voltage with a millimeter and battery read 13.9 to 14.0 with the car on and running.  all lights seem to work, i have tail lights, headlights, high beams, side marker lights, signal lights and hazard lights all working. radio works, dash lights works (very dimmed but works). car moves on its own power. i still have to go through everything once more to make sure everything is tight, not leaking,  & connected 

 

I might have to buy a Carburetor Synchronizer to get the webers to an exact number or to get the air fuel ratio right. My dad and i have the webers set up to where we both are satisfied but i think webers could be better

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On 4/5/2021 at 5:03 PM, Retro Wave said:

Ok as for the battery cable and the ford solenoid connections i also followed this diagram as ICEMAN510 mention/provided.

I'm wondering why you installed a Ford solenoid, isn't the one on the starter enough? I'm a couple of months behind you in getting the 510 back together and I have relocated the battery to the back P/S as well.

Thanks

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