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Front coil over conversion


SPIDERSHACKOV

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I'm curious now what angle I actually have on my setup, I guess I eyed it instead of measuring...

I did beebani's setup on the front of my 521, I installed the upper mount and then just ground clearance till I could get the lower mount where I wanted it.... 

 

Are you hitting on the upper mount ?

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Yes I am. The biggest concern is that I am not getting the 20 degree angle, not even close.

I have been doing a lot of research over this weekend this angle can make the difference of what springs you use. This could be the reason why so many are drastically different from one truck to the next. I have been seeing anywhere from 300lbs to 450lbs. 

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2 hours ago, SPIDERSHACKOV said:

Yes I am. The biggest concern is that I am not getting the 20 degree angle, not even close.

I have been doing a lot of research over this weekend this angle can make the difference of what springs you use. This could be the reason why so many are drastically different from one truck to the next. I have been seeing anywhere from 300lbs to 450lbs. 

I guess I never really thought about the angle, I just went by the pictures for placement of the lower mount.... 

And then clearanced the upper so everything fit without rubbing....

It all kind of landed where it could to fit and clear pre existing parts.... 

I think I have mine about 10 degrees,  I tried to get a good measurement but it was kind of hard ..

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Slightly off topic....I had Chuck install mine earlier this year and it came out poorly IMHO...

The coilovers are maxed out as low as they can go and the truck is higher in the front than the 2" lowering blocks in the rear. The wheels camber in at the top as well.

Im not happy with it at all. I'm trying some Hardbody drop spindles to see if I can fix these issues...

 

I am 20 mins away from you, PM if you want to stop by and check it out...

.

Edited by FrankRizzo
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 The more the angle from the vertical movement of the suspension, the less effective the shock and the load carrying of the spring. The spring rate effectively is lowered.  I'm not saying vertical to the pavement, I'm saying the lower control arm mount will swing in an arc slightly and if the spring and shock are on that arc, particularly towards the end of the travel, it will be most effective.

 

 

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6 hours ago, FrankRizzo said:

Slightly off topic....I had Chuck install mine earlier this year and it came out poorly IMHO...

The coilovers are maxed out as low as they can go and the truck is higher in the front than the 2" lowering blocks in the rear. The wheels camber in at the top as well.

Im not happy with it at all. I'm trying some Hardbody drop spindles to see if I can fix these issues...

 

I am 20 mins away from you, PM if you want to stop by and check it out...

.

 

Shouldn't you be able to get a shorter coilover to correct the ride height?

 

I wish I did some measuring first, I would have gotten the next longer coilover myself, I'm almost too low up front... it looks good but I only have about half inch clearance to the fender, every once and a while it rubs if I'm turned all the way and i hit a bump....

 

As far as the camber you should be able add or remove shims to correct that too.. that has more to do with ride height vs the coilover or drop spindles....  

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16 hours ago, FrankRizzo said:

Slightly off topic....I had Chuck install mine earlier this year and it came out poorly IMHO...

The coilovers are maxed out as low as they can go and the truck is higher in the front than the 2" lowering blocks in the rear. The wheels camber in at the top as well.

Im not happy with it at all. I'm trying some Hardbody drop spindles to see if I can fix these issues...

 

I am 20 mins away from you, PM if you want to stop by and check it out...

.

which shock model did you go with? I went with DS301 and its too low for me. I had to buy 2" extensions to make it higher. Wanna trade?

Edited by 5t341tH
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On 9/9/2020 at 7:02 AM, datzenmike said:

 The more the angle from the vertical movement of the suspension, the less effective the shock and the load carrying of the spring. The spring rate effectively is lowered.  I'm not saying vertical to the pavement, I'm saying the lower control arm mount will swing in an arc slightly and if the spring and shock are on that arc, particularly towards the end of the travel, it will be most effective.

 

 

Those variables can be factored in to the spring rate and shock valving.

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I got the ones Jason texted me:

Springs are QA1 "high travel"  - 10HT-450

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qa1-10ht450

I never went back and looked, but the "HT" part might be the problem????.....but I already have the Belltech hardbody drop spindles so Im going to try those and see what happens. Hopefully they fit and I can get the coilover to the middle of the range and the camber goes back out so the wheel/tire is closer to 90 degrees....

 

and the DS401 shocks

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I did the same , purchased what Jason recommended....

I wish he had a list of choices and the possible ride height.....

 

It would have been better if i mocked it up and ordered the coilovers to suit the ride height, I'll do that for the rear.... 

My problem is I like having all the parts available when I start.... I didn't think to much about it till I put the truck back on ground.... I got it high enough but I'd like even just a 1/4 more to prevent the occasional rub.....

I believe I used the same type of spring but a 7" on the ds301 shock... 

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TKwjIaQ.jpg

 

I would really like to see the angle that others have of the shocks. I don't know if you can see it well, but I am only able to get 6 - 7 degrees in my mock up. I am only holding these pieces up with my hands but they are pretty solid. this is far from the 20 degrees that Jason "Beebani" has as a specification for this install.  Jason and I have emailed back and forth  about this issue. He has now stopped messaging me back and the issue is still not resolved.

 

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3 hours ago, SPIDERSHACKOV said:

TKwjIaQ.jpg

 

I would really like to see the angle that others have of the shocks. I don't know if you can see it well, but I am only able to get 6 - 7 degrees in my mock up. I am only holding these pieces up with my hands but they are pretty solid. this is far from the 20 degrees that Jason "Beebani" has as a specification for this install.  Jason and I have emailed back and forth  about this issue. He has now stopped messaging me back and the issue is still not resolved.

 

I'll try later but not sure I'll have the time....

Is there any chance you have to factor the angle of the control arm into the angle for the coilover?

I dont know if that would help or hurt what your trying to figure out.....

Honestly by the picture I dont see how the brackets can be any where else.... 

 

You might wanna check how the upper control arm fits.... and how they go in with that upper bracket on... that was a little tricky for me...

Also watch the measurements of how the upper control arm is set... 

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The shock angle is between it and the lower control arm not vertically to the floor... unless the LCA is horizontal.

 

The control arm will swing in an arc as the shock compresses. It may increase a few degrees then hit 900 then begin to decrease. It may not even go that far. I was thinking more an angle lik on the rear axl where the angle doesn't change much.

 

As you can see the correction is very little with small amounts of tilt. 2% at 10%. I wouldn't even worry about it.

 

Shock Angle              Angle Correction Factor (ACF)  

10°………………………………….. .98
15°………………………………….. .96
20°…………………………………. .94
25°…………………………………. .91
30°…………………………………. .87
35°…………………………………. .82
40°…………………………………. .77
45°…………………………………. .71

 

 

 

Don't read too much into this below. This is a more extreme angle than yours. Again there are changes during suspension travel but in your case almost negligible.

RED2POI6PIXVMBNOGMMWQYQXQ4.jpg

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I don't claim to know everything like some on this forum. When it comes to following the designers (Jason) instruction to set a component to a certain specification (20degrees)I do it. If I can not get to that specification (6-7 degrees) I question it. If I was off a couple degrees I see your point, but I am off 13-14 degrees. That is a long way off. 

This specification just doesn't effect the spring rate it will also effect wheel travel based on where the shock is mounted on the lower control arm. 

 

From QA1 web site:

How to select the spring rate for independent suspension

Select your spring rate by using the following calculations:

Independent_Suspension.pngD1 = The distance from the pivot point of the a-arm to the mounting point of the spring/shock.
D2 = The distance from the pivot point of the a-arm to the center of the ball joint.
Divide D1 by D2 to calculate the force ratio (Fr).
Force Ratio (Fr) = D1/D2
Weigh your car to determine the weight on the wheels (W).
Divide the weight on the wheel by Fr to determine the force required at the spring (Sf).
W/Fr=Sf

 

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Datzenmike  I am pretty sure you are to old to have been taught common core math, math/geometry/trigonometry is right or wrong and sir you are wrong. Since the upper shock mount is rigid the shock pivots on this location. The angle of the shock determines where on the lower control arm the lower shock mount will be located. The lower control arm/spindle will pivot on a constant radius/arc from where the lower control arm pivots at the frame. This is measurement D2 on the above diagram, which is 13". If the shock is mounted at 7" from the pivot point of the lower control arm, it will have a 7" radius/arc. This is measurement D1 on the above diagram.  If the shock  has 3" of travel you will move 3" along the 7" radius/arc, the spindle will move along the 13" radius but will move a further distance.

Now if you put the lower shock mount at 8" (measurement D1), the shock move along the 8" radius for 3". The spindle still moving along the 13" radius will not go as far as it did on the 7" radius, there for less wheel travel. So yes the position of the lower shock mount and the angle of the shock will effect the wheel travel as I stated above. 

 

Here is a simple drawing. It is not to scale.

 

YgUx7xU.jpg?1

 

Both the placement of the lower shock mount on the lower control arm and the angle of the shock effect the spring rate.

 

With all that said  I started this thread to see for those that have installed the coil over conversion kit produced by Beebani have ever gotten the 20 degree angle that is called out in the instruction of the install of said kit. I was also looking for the procedure that was used to get the required angle. So far I have not heard of anyone that has even checked for said angle at time of install. If said angle is not an issue then why is it required as per instructions. Possible a different measurement needs to be called out for placement of the lower shock mount.

 

Those that have not installed said kits don't have a clue as to what I am referencing and should probably not spout there useless comments.

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21 hours ago, Crashtd420 said:

I'll try later but not sure I'll have the time....

Is there any chance you have to factor the angle of the control arm into the angle for the coilover?

I dont know if that would help or hurt what your trying to figure out.....

Honestly by the picture I dont see how the brackets can be any where else.... 

 

You might wanna check how the upper control arm fits.... and how they go in with that upper bracket on... that was a little tricky for me...

Also watch the measurements of how the upper control arm is set... 

After talking to Jason via e-mail he uses the frame as the Datum.

I am going to mock this up with as much of angle on the shocks that I can and still have all the components useful.

I am thinking all my issues are due to the install instructions have you put the shock at a 20 degree angle. Jason should rewrite them to not include this angle and have an actual measurement for the location of the lower shock mount.

Thank you for your help.

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2 hours ago, SPIDERSHACKOV said:

After talking to Jason via e-mail he uses the frame as the Datum.

I am going to mock this up with as much of angle on the shocks that I can and still have all the components useful.

I am thinking all my issues are due to the install instructions have you put the shock at a 20 degree angle. Jason should rewrite them to not include this angle and have an actual measurement for the location of the lower shock mount.

Thank you for your help.

The best I could check I was getting about the same amount of angle, 6-8 degrees.... 

I would just move forward as you described,  I think you'll be fine....

I have had my setup installed at that angle since March with no issues.....

 

On 9/11/2020 at 11:58 PM, 5t341tH said:

i used these. not exact but it spaced it 2"

shock_extensions_9029-163_-_9029-166-450

Thanks for this info, just ordered the 1" extension ... should give the extra clearance I want before setting up my rear ....

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4 hours ago, SPIDERSHACKOV said:

Datzenmike  I am pretty sure you are to old to have been taught common core math, math/geometry/trigonometry is right or wrong and sir you are wrong. Since the upper shock mount is rigid the shock pivots on this location. The angle of the shock determines where on the lower control arm the lower shock mount will be located. The lower control arm/spindle will pivot on a constant radius/arc from where the lower control arm pivots at the frame. This is measurement D2 on the above diagram, which is 13". If the shock is mounted at 7" from the pivot point of the lower control arm, it will have a 7" radius/arc. This is measurement D1 on the above diagram.  If the shock  has 3" of travel you will move 3" along the 7" radius/arc, the spindle will move along the 13" radius but will move a further distance.

Now if you put the lower shock mount at 8" (measurement D1), the shock move along the 8" radius for 3". The spindle still moving along the 13" radius will not go as far as it did on the 7" radius, there for less wheel travel. So yes the position of the lower shock mount and the angle of the shock will effect the wheel travel as I stated above. 

 

Here is a simple drawing. It is not to scale.

 

YgUx7xU.jpg?1

 

Both the placement of the lower shock mount on the lower control arm and the angle of the shock effect the spring rate.

 

With all that said  I started this thread to see for those that have installed the coil over conversion kit produced by Beebani have ever gotten the 20 degree angle that is called out in the instruction of the install of said kit. I was also looking for the procedure that was used to get the required angle. So far I have not heard of anyone that has even checked for said angle at time of install. If said angle is not an issue then why is it required as per instructions. Possible a different measurement needs to be called out for placement of the lower shock mount.

 

Those that have not installed said kits don't have a clue as to what I am referencing and should probably not spout there useless comments.

 

The resistance to moving the wheel through the 13" radius will change with the two positions, yes.

 

The further out towards the wheel the stiffer the ride. If the shock is mounted close to A it's travel is shortened and leverage increased and could compress and bottom out (unlikely if the proper length shock is used) If mounted out towards the spindle it's extended more at rest and could max out in the extended position (suspension droop) trying to follow a dip in the ground. Imagine, for what ever reason, you accidentally drive over a jump and the front wheels leave the ground. In all cases, the suspension is free to travel to it's bump stops on compression and to full suspension droop as long as the shock does not bottom out as I said.

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Sorry for the late reply Jon, I get 7.7 degrees sitting static.

You'll see my coil adjustments are maxed out to the bottom and the truck is still too high... and I have massive mad caster where the top of the wheels tip out..so that is why im trying the Belltech drop spindles.

Let me know how you figure out the swaybar mount. We could not get mine to fit with the rod ends he supplies....

 

 

yAH7FgJ.jpg

 

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