Transmission Disassembly Help

[Poptartjake]

So, I'm trying to get the input shaft out of my FS5W71C and am having trouble getting the counter drive gear (circled in red) off. I've got a 3 jaw puller, which I used to get the counter drive bearing off, but even with my impact wrench, I'm not really getting any movement from the gear. I'm feeling like I'm missing something that's keeping the gear locked in place, but I'm not sure what as the manual doesn't indicate anything and I don't see anything like a snap ring. I've watched several videos, read tons of posts and have the FSM up while I've been working on it for reference. Really need to get this input shaft off today so I can confirm it's the only part I need to order in (fingers crossed).
 

[datzenmike]

Sorry for the wait.

 

The 71B (and probably the 71C) press onto the woodruff key

 

Is there a snap ring on the front? I don't think there is the counter bearing holds it in place.

 

If it's clear to come off but just stubborn leave the puller on tight and heat gear till the oil smokes (no more) then smack forward from behind with a brass hammer or something that won't chip the teeth.

[Poptartjake]

4 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Sorry for the wait.

 

The 71B (and probably the 71C) press onto the woodruff key

 

Is there a snap ring on the front? I don't think there is the counter bearing holds it in place.

 

If it's clear to come off but just stubborn leave the puller on tight and heat gear till the oil smokes (no more) then smack forward from behind with a brass hammer or something that won't chip the teeth.

Sounds like a plan. I'll pickup a torch tomorrow and drag it back outside to try that as 2 days of fighting this single gear has brought me to my wits end. I've even been smacking it tonight with a rubber mallet with the jaws tightened up, no budge. 

I've already removed all snaps rings. There are woodruff keys on one of the gears behind the synchro on the input shaft, which I've tried pulling out as far as possible, but still nothing. 😕 

[Draker]

I’ve never been in a 71c but the others I’ve seen the counter shaft gears are all solid and come out as a part of the shaft. You remove the counter shaft and the main shaft at the same time. It’s a pain.. all to just get at the input shaft.

 

again might be different on that gear box.

[Poptartjake]

7 hours ago, Draker said:

I’ve never been in a 71c but the others I’ve seen the counter shaft gears are all solid and come out as a part of the shaft. You remove the counter shaft and the main shaft at the same time. It’s a pain.. all to just get at the input shaft.

 

again might be different on that gear box.

The FSM shows the counter drive gear and input shaft assembly being removed together in separate pieces, but the more I look at it, I've had this same thought about it being a single welded piece attached to the sleeve behind it. I've spoke with another person who said they removed the gear in the same manner I've been trying, so I'm going to get a torch and give it a little extra oomph today. See if that gets me anywhere. If not, I may have to just bang out the entire shaft, which will be an adventure I'm sure (no press available). 

[datzenmike]

The vert front counter gear and the one on the main shaft that turns it are removable. This gear set determines if the transmission is a wide or close ratio. It should be on a keyway with a woodruf key. A rubber mallet wn't shock it enough. You need a soft metal like brass. Don't over heat that gear, just enough to make the oil smoke.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

The gear is pressed onto the countershaft so using a three jaw puller isn't likely to remove it. You will need a press. But if you are simply trying to remove the input gear, the entire trans has to come apart. I wish I were closer because I can do this in my sleep.

 

FYI- be careful anytime you're using a puller on a gear. The raised corners on the gears are easily shipped off by using a puller.

[Poptartjake]

1 hour ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

The gear is pressed onto the countershaft so using a three jaw puller isn't likely to remove it. You will need a press. But if you are simply trying to remove the input gear, the entire trans has to come apart. I wish I were closer because I can do this in my sleep.

 

FYI- be careful anytime you're using a puller on a gear. The raised corners on the gears are easily shipped off by using a puller.

I wish you could come do this for me too. 😄 I know things like the bearing are pressed on, which I was able to remove with the puller, just took some creative problem solving since the clearance was so tight. 

I've acquired a torch and am going to try applying a bit of heat, see if that makes any sort of difference. Will report back 

[datzenmike]

I pulled mine off with a two jaw puller no problem. Once the counter driven gear is off, the input gear can be removed. Pretty sure I did mine without doing much else other than taking the font case off. Did not need to take the transmission apart further. 

 

Poptartjake.... the input drive and the counter driven gears come is sets, so you will need an exact match if just changing the input gear. You can replace with an unknown set but this will change your transmission from a  mid to close or wide ratio or some combination of this. 

[Poptartjake]

I can just count up the teeth on each to figure out what ones I have, right? 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

38 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

I pulled mine off with a two jaw puller no problem. Once the counter driven gear is off, the input gear can be removed. Pretty sure I did mine without doing much else other than taking the font case off. Did not need to take the transmission apart further. 

 

Poptartjake.... the input drive and the counter driven gears come is sets, so you will need an exact match if just changing the input gear. You can replace with an unknown set but this will change your transmission from a  mid to close or wide ratio or some combination of this. 

Yeah, sometimes they come off easily. Other times, not so much. I think it's an era thing - the early ones maybe did not have as tight a fit...?

41 minutes ago, Poptartjake said:

I wish you could come do this for me too. 😄 I know things like the bearing are pressed on, which I was able to remove with the puller, just took some creative problem solving since the clearance was so tight. 

I've acquired a torch and am going to try applying a bit of heat, see if that makes any sort of difference. Will report back 

If the trans is apart (bellhousing off), it's so easy to get the rest of the trans apart. I basically lay the assembly on a workbench on it's side, then beat the center plate out with a deadblow hammer, after all the parts behind the plate are removed obviously. From there, the two shafts separate enough to get the input gear out. 

[Poptartjake]

2 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Yeah, sometimes they come off easily. Other times, not so much. I think it's an era thing - the early ones maybe did not have as tight a fit...?

If the trans is apart (bellhousing off), it's so easy to get the rest of the trans apart. I basically lay the assembly on a workbench on it's side, then beat the center plate out with a deadblow hammer, after all the parts behind the plate are removed obviously. From there, the two shafts separate enough to get the input gear out. 

I watched a video on YT that showed this being done, so it's not out of the question I suppose, I just wanted to minimize the amount of disassembly as my goal is obviously to get it put back together as fast as possible (ideally before winter, at this rate..).

Two other options I've been considering that I'd like your guys feedback on;
1. If I can find a replacement trans from a Pull-a-Part, it will cost me around $200. My only worry is that I'm going to go spend the time to remove it and then find out it's bad too. Should I check my local yards or no?
2. Since I have it completely out, I wonder if a local shop would be able to help me get this gear off since it seems outside my capabilities (heat did nothing). 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Replacement trans for $200 is a great deal. Pull the drain plug and look for chunks. Worst case, you've got $200 worth of spare parts.

 

Any shop that says they can do it without flinching probably can. If they flinch when you ask, that's when you turn around and walk away.

[Poptartjake]

54 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Replacement trans for $200 is a great deal. Pull the drain plug and look for chunks. Worst case, you've got $200 worth of spare parts.

 

Any shop that says they can do it without flinching probably can. If they flinch when you ask, that's when you turn around and walk away.

I've just decided to try and disassemble the rear and punch out the shafts as needed. 

Stupid me got a punch stuck in one of the pins while taking a fork out, so I've now got to deal with that. 😒

EDIT: Got it out, and the pins too! Hate these things. 

[Poptartjake]

How do I get the E clip off the OD/Reverse Shift fork? Struggling here

[datzenmike]

Are you not just removing the counter gear complete with the stuck gear??? With it removed the input should just come off.

[Poptartjake]

1 minute ago, datzenmike said:

Are you not just removing the counter gear complete with the stuck gear??? With it removed the input should just come off.

I'm trying to do as Stoffregen said and disassemble the rear, then punch the counter shaft forward a bit to allow the input shaft to be removed. I'm trying to get the last shift fork off, but there is an E clip keeping it from sliding out, I think. Something it preventing the fork from just sliding out. 

[Draker]

Make sure when you start taking it apart, take a lot of pictures. Then make sure you lay everything out in a way that is very organized. It will make it a breeze when putting it back together.

[Poptartjake]

2 minutes ago, Draker said:

Make sure when you start taking it apart, take a lot of pictures. Then make sure you lay everything out in a way that is very organized. It will make it a breeze when putting it back together.

Not too worried about pics as this isn't the most complicated thing I've taken apart, but I most definitely have it all going onto a white canvas with labeling and numbering. 😉

[Draker]

1 minute ago, Poptartjake said:

Not too worried about pics as this isn't the most complicated thing I've taken apart, but I most definitely have it all going onto a white canvas with labeling and numbering. 😉

 

You say that now.. Lots of small parts and shims, spacers, things that can be installed forward or backward. 

 

 

[Poptartjake]

This is where I'm stuck. That little clip..

I think I'll paint a stripe on things like the gears to make sure everything get lined up right in the end.

[datzenmike]

Just go to the back of the counter shaft and take anything off of it on the rear side of the adapter plate.  I think a nut holding a bearing on with a 5th drive ger and a reverse in front of that. I guess then you could drive the counter forward out of the adapter plate.

[Poptartjake]

12 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Just go to the back of the counter shaft and take anything off of it on the rear side of the adapter plate.  I think a nut holding a bearing on with a 5th drive ger and a reverse in front of that. 

Well, ya, but the shift rods still have to come out? 
 

[datzenmike]

I don't see why They are over on the other side and on the main shaft. It's been a while since I took one apart.

[Poptartjake]

The OD and Reverse shift fork is on the rear side, but maybe you're right. I just can't get my jaws around it with the fork still on.