Lug nut studs/brake drums

[wayno]

I would likely try to modify the 320 part to fit your needs by cutting/grinding the square part far enough down to look like the 222 part, then cut it off the proper length, drill a new hole for the keeper and put it together.

If you don't want to do that you now know what the 222 part is supposed to look like, you could find or make a round piece of metal the same size/thickness as the spring is that will fit in the housing, drill a hole in it and install your 222 shaft and weld it in place, then weld the gear on the end of it and put it together, now this way the window may want to rattle up or down on its own and there would be no play in the handle.

I described all this for only one reason, not to tell you how to fix it but to give you ideas/make you think about it, I am pretty sure you can make the 320 one work and I believe that would be the easiest way to fix the issue short term, maybe long term, depends on how it works when your done.

Does the little gear from the 222 part fit on the 320 part?

 

By the way that is the exact hammer I used to pull mine apart and put it back together along with a chisel and a punch.

Edited April 28, 2020 by wayno

[Rusty Dawg]

I agree with you wayno.  The gear on the 222 does in fact fit the 320, so all good.  Glad to hear we have the same taste in tools.

 

Thanks for the feedback to all and I will post the finished product when complete.

[wayno]

I have a lot of tools, it just happened that I grabbed that hammer as I didn't want to hit the part too hard, small hammer less accidental damage.

 

Nissan is pretty good about making parts that interchange, the 320 and Roadster share a lot of parts, a lot of Datsun's share parts.

 

 

[Rusty Dawg]

Success!  Ok, 50% success since I have yet to bust the other one loose yet.  On the bright side, it seems as though the pads are almost like new, so I will turn the rotors, put new studs in the drums and mount the wheels.

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[wayno]

So how did you get it off?

Interesting shoe adjustment setup.

[Rusty Dawg]

I hadn't touched the drums in well over a month, so I took a couple of L bolts(bent anchor bolts) along with a slide hammer and some heat to try and remove the driver side rear drum , but to no avail.  I then moved on to the passenger side one and as I was inserting the L bolts I noticed the drum was a bit loose and it simply slid right off.  It was probably the numerous times that I applied heat on the drum over the past 8 weeks.  I hope that this will be the case with the driver side one since I haven't applied a lot of heat to that one until this past weekend.

 

I know that when I applied a lot of heat to the removed drum it melted all the grease.  Where might I be packing fresh grease when I go to install the drum back on the axle?

 

 

 

[Serge]

Hi, I don't think there should be any grease in there -  Early Ford V8s have a similar taper to the rear drums and there is a lot of forum discussion about how to treat the taper for Fords: consensus seems to be to lap the drum and taper so the clearances are tight, clean everything, NO oil/grease/ copper (if you lubricate the taper the keyway will load up and get slogged out).  Have a quick look.

The closest personal experience on this is tapered flywheels on old Brit cars - they can take alot to separate the parts, and there is a reason the nut is so big - big torque required to secure the taper.  

[Rusty Dawg]

Thanks for the insight and advise Serge.  I will need to figure out the thread pitch and diameter to come up with the proper amount of torque to apply when re-installing the drum.

 

[nicklp]

RustyDawg, can you get a hold of this kind of puller to use with the L-bolts? This is the kind that took my rear drums right off (with intact studs...). Big congratulations on the progress. I concur with no grease in there. You had stuff that leaked past the axle seal maybe?? None of the printed stuff I have shows a torque value for the big nut. I think I just tightened until it felt right and put in the cotter pin.

[Rusty Dawg]

Thanks nicklp.  Not sure what fluid was draining while heating up the drums.  It might have come out of the axle, but I'm not sure since I couldn't see in there at the time.  I'm gonna give it another try with the slide hammer and if that still doesn't work I will search for the puller you mention.  I've seen one similar to that, but you could use a breaker bar or even an impact gun on it.  As I thought about turning the drums, installing the longer studs and putting it back together, I've decided that since I have them off I will go ahead and replace the brake pads that way I never have to take these damn drums off the rest of my lifetime.

 

[wayno]

Never give up or throw away them brake shoes, I have never seen anything like them myself, I doubt your going to be able to buy what you have from an auto parts store, if they are good use what you have, if the linings are coming off you will need to take them shoes to a place that re-lines brake shoes.

[nicklp]

That crossbar comes off, so it's the same kind you've seen. The shock of the impact gun or hitting the crossbar with a hammer is part of what helps it work. You can also tighten it really tight and then smack it end on with a sledge hammer (as if you were trying to drive the threaded part into the axle). I know it sounds like voodoo, but the vibration/shock created when you do that actually disrupts the way the tapered shaft and the tapered hole in the hub are stuck together.

[jagman]

I'm sure that others older than I have also worked with the tapered axles.  I attach the drum puller to the studs and tighten the puller to the maximum then spray PB Blaster on the axle shaft.

The next day I repeat the process of tighten and spray.  When the drum releases do not be in front of it (don't ask how I know this).  When the drum has been removed clean the taper well and as much of the drum taper as you can to remove rust and grease. Before you reassemble the drum onto the taper wipe the taper with PB Blaster to prevent further rust and to ensure that you can remove it more easily in the future.  For most applications  60 -70 ft lbs is all that is required for the axle nut.  I usually apply 60 and then go to the next place I can insert the cotter pin.  I have found that with certain nameless autos, when I have resorted to the torch, I have also ruined the outer axle seal.  be sure and check them before you put it all back together.

[nicklp]

The old guys who taught me when I was starting out as a mechanic ( before I became an old guy) said you clean a tapered shaft assembly and put it together dry.  Another thing I've learned over the years is that if you talk to enough gurus you will generally find some who directly contradict each other, so just my opinion. 

[Charlie69]

All the tapered shafts I have worked with over the first 10 years of my mechanical debacles I cleaned and put together dry.  I found out after time and having take apart the tapered shafts that I had put together dry that it was difficult to get them apart.  I started using a light brushing of never seize on the cleaned tapered shaft parts before assembly and this ended up when it was disassembly time again the parts were easier to get apart mostly do to lack of rust.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:25 PM, jagman said:

 When the drum releases do not be in front of it (don't ask how I know this). 

Leave the nut on just a couple of threads so when the drum lets go it doesn't put a hole in the wall of the shop.

[Rusty Dawg]

I was wondering if putting some never seize would be a problem, so I will do so in case I have to take it apart at a later date.  

 

I definitely left the nut on there.  I don't care about putting a hole in my wall nearly as much as I care about not breaking my ankle.

 

Question....how do I check to ensure the seal is still in good shape?  I don't know that I would be able to find a replacement if I mess it up while removing for inspection.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Anti seize would be ok on another part of this type, but an axle shaft bears the weight of the vehicle. Too risky to have anything come loose. I would clean it up well and put it on dry. Now that you know how to remove them (and have all new wheel studs) future removal will be a snap.

 

How do you tell if a seal is bad? It leaks!!! Seriously though, you need to do a visual inspection of it. When in doubt, replace it. If you can get the seal out in one piece, it will not be hard to source another seal by dimension. Again, falling back on the strong BMC connection, it's likely that a Morris or Austin seal will fit.

 

Dave Rebello once told me a story of a guy he worked with at a diesel repair shop who got knocked out by a flying cam gear. He was pressing it on or off or something and it slipped loose from the press. So yeah, broken ankles, holes in the wall...no good.

 

 

[Rusty Dawg]

Thanks Stoffregen.  As mentioned, everyone has a different take on repairs.  I suppose that I can put it back together and watch for leaks, then take it apart if a leak presents itself.  Hopefully the seal sits back far enough that the heat did not alter its use.

[nicklp]

Just found out that old Willys jeeps have rear axle set ups that look similar to ours on the outer ends. On YouTube a guy named Carl Walk has a quick video called "how to remove a hub and drum assembly." And a guy named metalshaper has "Willys Jeep hub removal...." He also shows (multiple videos) his reassembly process including replacing outer bearings, which look like a pretty similar set up. They, of course, cheat and do it with intact studs. 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

14 hours ago, Rusty Dawg said:

Thanks Stoffregen.  As mentioned, everyone has a different take on repairs.  I suppose that I can put it back together and watch for leaks, then take it apart if a leak presents itself.  Hopefully the seal sits back far enough that the heat did not alter its use.

You did mention a liquid of some kind that came out when you removed the flange. It is possible that the seal did get damaged during all the heating, and the goo you saw was gear oil.

[nicklp]

Take another look at those parts book pages I posted. There are two seals (referred to as an "oil seal" (the inner one), and "grease seal" (the outer one)). Between them is the axle bearing, which is packed with wheel bearing grease. The inner "oil seal" keeps the diff. lube oil from washing out the wheel bearing grease from the tapered roller axle bearing. Those jeep videos I mentioned above show a set up like that. 

[Rusty Dawg]

It very well could've been gear oil that came out.  It wasn't a large amount that leaked out, but there was a liquid that came out for sure as I headed up the drum.  If the seal was ruined, wouldn't I notice it seeping or leaking oil now?

 

I will definitely be watching the video nicklp suggested.

[nicklp]

Could it have just been crappy brake fluid coming out of the wheel cylinder? Are you feeling lucky? Whether oil would be leaking out depends on the level of oil in the rear end and the condition of both of those seals. It could have been melted wheel bearing grease getting past the outer seal (leaving you with a dry bearing), gear oil getting past both seals (which would be a problem in the future because it would wash the heavy wheel bearing grease out of the tapered roller axle bearing), or maybe brake fluid that was so dirty it looked like oil. It could have been years worth of minor leakage that was just congealed on the drum and backing plate area. Only you know how hot you got the whole set up. If it was only a few drips, I might ignore it. I might rebuild the brake cylinders while I was in there, though. You mentioned getting the shoes re-lined. A place called Capitol Clutch and Brake in West Sacramento did mine years ago, depending on where in the 400 mile long CA central valley you are. Totally happy with them. Of course, if you are going to put it back together and see if it leaks, better to stick with the old shoes.

[Rusty Dawg]

Update....well my off season has allowed me to get back to my project and I finally removed the 2 back drums last week with everyone's help.  Brakes have been re-padded and drums turned, so it's now time to put them back together, bleed the brakes and test once I get her running which I hope to do by this weekend.  I do have a question though before I move much further in trying to get her going which I will post on a separate posting regarding my compression test.

 

Thanks to all for the support.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Rusty Dawg